Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Philippines Defense Forces Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Locked Topic
The Kalayaan, Panatag & other disputed islands; Future conflict zones?
Topic Started: Feb 2 2005, 08:00 PM (155,937 Views)
Parastriker
Member Avatar
Member
[ *  *  * ]
Tsukiyomi
May 24 2012, 12:51 PM
We need to assert our sovereignty, board the chicom vessels, arrest the chinese fisherman. The chinese will attack and we will get it all on film and then the canos will act.

Allowing the chinese scum to dictate the way this plays out will result in us losing our land. We need to set the terms, we need to shape the environment, we need to take the offensive even if it means we get in a shooting war. Diplomacy does not work with these a$$holeS.

I agree with you wholesomely, Tsukky.

Better yet, let's add some PAF pressure on those rednecks.
Success through information, victory through disinformation.

"Good leaders make efficient followers. Great leaders make good followers. But true leaders make leaders out of mere followers."

"Measuring the intelligence of a common internet user is as easy as looking at his/her grammar."
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
troynicolas
Recruit
[ * ]
China's Sea Claims Excessive, Says US
May 24, 2012, 7:17pm
WASHINGTON (AP) — Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton says that China’s claims in the South China Sea exceed what is permitted by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

She added that US failure to approve the UNCLOS weakens its advocacy for allies in the disputed South China Sea.

Clinton was speaking at a hearing Wednesday of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, where she and top military leaders offered an impassioned plea for the US to join the pact.

To China’s chagrin, the Obama administration has asserted since 2010 that although the US is not itself a claimant state in the South China Sea, it has an interest in the peaceful resolution of the disputes and in the freedom of navigation in waters that carry a large chunk of global trade.

Clinton said the US supports countries “being threatened” by China’s claims.

“As a non-party, we cede the legal high ground to China. We put ourselves on the defensive. We are not as strong an advocate for our friends and allies in the region as I would like us to be, and I don’t think that’s any place for the world’s pre-eminent maritime power to find ourselves,” she said.

China is among the more than 160 nations that are party to the convention. Its expansive claims in the South China Sea are disputed by Brunei, Malaysia, Taiwan, Vietnam and the Philippines, a US treaty ally.

The convention was concluded in 1982 and has been in force since 1994. Republican opposition has stalled US approval for years although the military says it still acts in accordance with the pact’s principles.

Despite considerable bipartisan support and the backing of pro-business groups, Democrat committee chairman Sen. John Kerry acknowledged the difficulty in moving the treaty, especially in an election year in the United States. Several Republican lawmakers voiced opposition Wednesday to the convention.

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Army Gen. Martin Dempsey, said US endorsement would strengthen US security interests as it would provide clarity in definition of navigational rights and maritime zones — at a time of growing competition for resources.

“And from that clarity comes stability. And as we now begin to rebalance our security interests into the Pacific, this becomes very important,” Dempsey said.

Democrat Sen. Barbara Boxer criticized Beijing’s claims in the South China Sea. She produced a map to show the claims extended far beyond China’s own 200-mile (320-kilometer) exclusive economic zone and amounted to a “significant territorial grab that comes very close to the land borders of countries in the region.”

She referred to the standoff at the Scarborough Shoal that began last month when the Philippines navy accused Chinese fishermen of poaching within its exclusive zone.

The Philippines accused China on Wednesday of sending more government and fishing vessels to the uninhabited, horseshoe-shaped shoal. Manila says China has a total of 96 ships, fishing boats and dinghies there, while the Philippines has two.

Rising power China has turned down a Philippine invitation for international arbitration of the dispute.

Beijing’s position in the South China Sea disputes is based on ancient maps. A map it submitted to the UN in 2009 claims virtually the entire South China Sea, but Beijing has failed to clarify the exact extent of its claims.

http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/360386/china...cessive-says-us

 
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
InkognitoAce
Member Avatar
Member
[ *  *  * ]
Parastriker
May 24 2012, 09:06 PM
Tsukiyomi
May 24 2012, 12:51 PM
We need to assert our sovereignty, board the chicom vessels, arrest the chinese fisherman.  The chinese will attack and we will get it all on film and then the canos will act.

Allowing the chinese scum to dictate the way this plays out will result in us losing our land.  We need to set the terms, we need to shape the environment, we need to take the offensive even if it means we get in a shooting war. Diplomacy does not work with these a$$holeS.

I agree with you wholesomely, Tsukky.

Better yet, let's add some PAF pressure on those rednecks.

How would you plan to do that?

Bear in mind: if the Chinese do retaliate - which they will in case we fire the first shot -, they will be capable of destroying all our major military assets. And I am certain they would be more than willing to do so.

Another aspect that is forgotten is that the standoff with China is raising Chinese nationalism: not only on the mainland, but also in Taiwan. We should be very careful as it is obvious that the Taiwanese support the ChiCom claim.

Remember that it took France to unite the German states in 1870/71.
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God." (G. K. Chesterton)

"Justice forbids, and reason itself forbids, the State to be godless; or to adopt a line of action which would end in godlessness, namely to treat the various religions (as they call them) alike, and to bestow upon them promiscuously equal rights and privileges." (Pope Leo XIII)
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
matrix
Member Avatar
Member
[ *  *  * ]
Vietnamese Back Philippines

By Huy Duong
May 24, 2012


In a new twist this week to the stand-off between China and the Philippines at Scarborough Shoal, 66 Vietnamese, many of them well-known public figures in Vietnam and within the Vietnamese Diaspora, signed a letter to the Philippine Ambassador in Vietnam to express support for the Philippines’ “sovereign rights” in the continuing stand-off. The main points of the letter are:

1) Support for the “sovereign rights” of the Philippines in the Scarborough Shoal.

2) Opposition to China’s use of the “nine-dashed line”  to make overlapping claims with the Exclusive Economic Zones and continental shelves of the Philippines, Vietnam and other ASEAN countries, as well as opposition to “China’s actions and threats of force,” the latter presumably referring to articles in China’s state controlled press.

3) Support for the Philippines’ proposal to submit the dispute at Scarborough Shoal to the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea (ITLOS).

The first interesting thing about the letter, to which I am a signatory, is that while supporting the Philippines, the letter stops short of taking sides on the question of sovereignty over the rocks at Scarborough Shoal. What it supports the Philippines on is the question of “sovereign rights,” which isn’t sovereignty over islands and rocks, but rights over the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and continental shelf.

Does it make legal sense to support the Philippines on the question of rights over the EEZ and continental shelf without taking sides on the question of sovereignty over the rocks? Don’t the rights over the EEZ and continental shelf depend on sovereignty over territories, including islands and rocks? The answer lies in the fact that the rocks at Scarborough Shoal aren’t the only territories in this area; there’s also Luzon Island. It’s possible to argue that these rocks aren’t entitled to an EEZ beyond 12 nautical miles, therefore the EEZ in this area belongs to Luzon Island, regardless of whether the rocks belong to China or the Philippines, and regardless of the fact that they are disputed territory.

It’s evident that while both Vietnam and the Philippines feel most threatened by China’s “nine-dashed line,” those countries also feel that this line has a legal Achilles’ heel, which they seek to target with the concepts of UNCLOS such as EEZ, and of maritime delimitations, arguing that regardless of which country owns an island or rock, and of the fact that it might be disputed territory, the EEZ in certain areas belongs to larger landmasses.

The second interesting thing is that whoever drafted the letter chose not to use the conventional international name of “South China Sea.” Instead, they chose to use a combination of the Filipino and Vietnamese names, “West Philippine Sea/East Sea.” Are we about to see something similar to South Korea’s challenge to the conventional name “Sea of Japan”?

However, most interesting of all is the fact that this is the first time ever that members of the public in a country involved in the South China Sea disputes have expressed support for another in this way.

Still, perhaps this move shouldn’t come as a complete surprise given that in recent years most of the incidents in the South China Sea involve either China and Vietnam or China and the Philippines. With a common legal argument and facing a common, but much larger, opponent, there will likely be a tendency for the Vietnamese and the Filipinos to move towards a strategy of mutual support in the future.

Huy Duong contributes articles on the South China Sea to several news outlets including the BBC and Vietnam's online publication VietNamNet.

http://the-diplomat.com/asean-beat/2012/05...ck-philippines/
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
icefrog
Member Avatar


China’s sea claims exceed what’s allowed by international law, says Clinton

Quote:
 

WASHINGTON—US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Wednesday said that China’s claims in the West Philippine Sea (South China Sea) exceeded what was permitted by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (Unclos) as the Obama administration began a new push to join the 30-year-old treaty.

Two Democratic senators also criticized Beijing’s claims in the West Philippine Sea during a hearing of the Senate committee on foreign relations, where Clinton and top military leaders warned that Washington’s failure to ratify Unclos weakened its support for US allies in the disputed waterway and put the US military at increasing risk of confrontation with China.

“China and other countries are staking out illegal claims in the South China Sea and elsewhere,” said Democratic Senator John Kerry, chair of the foreign relations committee.

During the hearing, Democrat Senator Barbara Boxer produced a map showing that China’s claims extended far beyond its 320-kilometer (200-nautical-mile) exclusive economic zone provided for in Unclos and amounted to a “significant territorial grab that comes very close to the land borders of countries in the region.”

China, which is among the more than 160 nations that are party to the convention that was concluded in 1982 and has been in force since 1994, has made expansive claims in the West Philippine Sea based on ancient maps.
A map that China submitted to the United Nations in 2009 claims virtually the entire strategic waterway, but the Asian power has failed to clarify the exact extent of its claims that overlap those of Brunei, Malaysia, Taiwan, Vietnam and the Philippines, a US treaty ally.

Confrontations have erupted between China and some of these countries, particularly the Philippines and Vietnam. Even the US military has had repeated run-ins in the waterway with Chinese vessels and aircraft, including a midair collision in 2001 that killed a Chinese jet pilot and forced a US Navy reconnaissance plane to make an emergency landing on China’s Hainan Island.


http://globalnation.inquirer.net/37841/chi...aw-says-clinton
Sign up for the Philippines' first E-wallet via this referral and get PHP 24.00 as a gift credited to your account:
https://coins.ph/invite/gphUpV
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
matrix
Member Avatar
Member
[ *  *  * ]
Analysis - China's nine-dashed line in South China Sea

By David Lague
HONG KONG | Fri May 25, 2012 5:12am BST


(Reuters) - Alongside an armada of paramilitary patrol vessels and fishing boats, China has fired off a barrage of historical records to reinforce its claim over a disputed shoal near the Philippines in the South China Sea.

While this propaganda broadside makes it clear Beijing will take a tough line with Manila as a standoff over Scarborough Shoal continues into a seventh week, the exact legal justification for China's claim and the full extent of the territory affected remain uncertain, according to experts in maritime law.

Like most of its claims to vast expanses of the resource-rich and strategically important South China Sea, Beijing prefers to remain ambiguous about the details, they say.

This allows the ruling Communist Party to demonstrate to an increasingly nationalistic domestic audience that it can defend China's right to control a swathe of ocean territory.

And, it avoids further inflaming tensions with neighbours who are already apprehensive about China's growing military power and territorial ambition.

"This ambiguity serves China's domestic purpose which is to safeguard the government's legitimacy and satisfy domestic public opinion," said Sun Yun, a Washington D.C.-based China foreign policy expert and a former analyst for the International Crisis Group in Beijing.

POTENTIAL FLASHPOINT

Rival claims to territory in the South China Sea are one of the biggest potential flashpoints in the Asia-Pacific region.

China, the Philippines, Vietnam, Taiwan, Malaysia and Brunei all have territorial claims across a waterway that provides 10 per cent of the global fisheries catch and carries $5 trillion in ship-borne trade. Half the world's shipping tonnage traverses its sea lanes.

The United States, which claims national interests in the South China Sea, recently completed naval exercises with the Philippines near Scarborough Shoal. It is stepping up its military presence in the region as part of a strategic "pivot" towards Asia after more than a decade of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The acrimonious confrontation over Scarborough Shoal, known as Huangyan Island in Chinese, began last month when Beijing ordered its civilian patrol vessels to stop the Philippines arresting Chinese fisherman working in the disputed area.

Beijing and Manila both claim sovereignty over the group of rocks, reefs and small islands about 220 km (132 miles) from the Philippines.

The Philippines says the shoal falls within its 200 nautical mile Exclusive Economic Zone(EEZ), giving it the right to exploit the natural resources in this area.

SONG DYNASTY RECORDS

In a concerted response from Beijing, official government spokesmen, senior diplomats and reports carried by influential state-controlled media outlets have drawn on the histories of earlier dynasties to rebut Manila's claim.

They say the records show China's sailors discovered Huangyan Island 2,000 years ago and cite extensive records of visits, mapping expeditions and habitation of the shoal from the Song Dynasty (960-1279 AD) right through to the modern period.

To back up these arguments, China has also deployed some of its most advanced paramilitary patrol vessels to the shoal in a calibrated show of strength, for now keeping its increasingly powerful navy at a distance.

A Philippines government spokesman said on Wednesday China had almost 100 Chinese vessels at the shoal, including four government patrol ships. Earlier, Manila demanded that all Chinese vessels leave the area.

China's Foreign Ministry responded on Wednesday that only 20 Chinese fishing boats were in the area, a normal number for this time of the year, and they were operating in accordance with Chinese law.

NINE-DASH LINE

Maritime lawyers note Beijing routinely outlines the scope of its claims with reference to the so-called nine-dashed line that takes in about 90 percent of the 3.5 million square kilometre South China Sea on Chinese maps.

This vague boundary was first officially published on a map by China's Nationalist government in 1947 and has been included in subsequent maps issued under Communist rule.

While Beijing has no difficulty in producing historical evidence to support its territorial links to many islands and reefs, less material is available to show how it arrived at the nine-dashed line.

In a September, 2008 U.S. diplomatic cable published by WikiLeaks, the U.S. Embassy in Beijing reported that a senior Chinese government maritime law expert, Yin Wenqiang, had "admitted" he was unaware of the historical basis for the nine dashes.

In a March, 2008 cable, the embassy reported that a senior Chinese diplomat, Zheng Zhenhua, had handed over a written statement when asked about the scope of this boundary.

"The dotted line of the South China Sea indicates the sovereignty of China over the islands in the South China Sea since ancient times and demonstrates the long-standing claims and jurisdiction practice over the waters of the South China Sea," the statement said, the embassy reported.

Scarborough Shoal falls within the nine-dashed line, as do the Paracel and Spratly Islands, the two most important disputed island groups in the South China Sea.

LAW OF THE SEA TREATY

China insists it has sovereignty over both these groups but it has yet to specify how much of the rest of the territory within the nine-dashed line it intends to claim.

One reason suggested for this lack of clarity is that China, like all of the other claimants except Taiwan, is a signatory to the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

If Beijing defined its claim to conform with the provisions of this treaty, it would almost certainly reduce the scope of Chinese territory and expose the government to criticism from vocal nationalists.

Alternatively, if Beijing was to maximize the extent of its claim to include all or most of the territory within the nine-dashed line, it would be difficult to justify under international law and antagonize its neighbours.

"Neither choice leads to a promising prospect," said Sun. "Therefore sticking to the existing path is the most rational."

This means that China is likely to remain vague, experts say, particularly during the current period of heightened political sensitivity ahead of a leadership transition scheduled for later this year.

TRADITIONAL FISHING GROUNDS

However, this lack of clarity doesn't mean China's claims over South China Sea territory have less merit than other claimants, experts say.

In the case of Scarborough shoal, Beijing says the land is Chinese territory and the waters surrounding the shoal have been China's traditional fishing grounds for generations.

"This geographic proximity argument the Philippines is using is not necessarily good in international law," says Sam Bateman, a maritime security researcher at Singapore's Nanyang Technological University.

"If China can demonstrate sovereignty, its claim is as good as the Philippines'."

Under the provisions of UNCLOS, a nation with sovereignty over an island can claim a surrounding 12-nautical mile territorial sea.

UNCLOS defines an island as a natural land feature that remains above water at high tide. If the island is inhabitable, it is also entitled to an EEZ and possibly a continental shelf.

JOINT EXPLOITATION

However, Beijing has not claimed a territorial sea or an EEZ from any of the features of Scarborough Shoal.

Most maritime experts doubt China will agree to have any claims over the South China Sea heard by the United Nation's International Tribunal on the Law of the Sea (ITLOS), the body set up to rule on disputes.

Beijing's policy is to negotiate on the joint exploitation of natural resources in contested areas but rival claimants are reluctant to accept this formula because it could be seen as recognition of China's sovereignty.

Beijing is also increasingly wary about the Obama administration's military "pivot" to Asia designed to counter China's growing power," security experts say.

They suggest Vietnam and the Philippines have already shown greater willingness to challenge China since the U.S. signalled a renewed interest in the region.

"They think they have the U.S. on side," said Bateman.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/05/25/u...E84O07720120525
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Ayoshi
Member Avatar


ASEAN concludes drafting key elements for COC in South China Sea

Posted Image

PHNOM PENH -- Senior officials of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) on Thursday finished drafting the core elements for making the Code of Conduct (COC) in the South China Sea, said a Cambodian senior official.
Quote:
 
"We wrapped up our discussion on the key elements for drafting the COC and we will submit them to the ASEAN foreign ministers for final decision in July's meeting before we start negotiating with China," said Soeung Rathchavy, secretary of state at Cambodia's Foreign Ministry, who chaired the 7th ASEAN senior officials meeting. "It is a positive result."

Rathchavy said the COC is very important for strengthening peace and stability in the region and for boosting friendship and cooperation between ASEAN and China.

Read More: www.interaksyon.com
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Parastriker
Member Avatar
Member
[ *  *  * ]
InkognitoAce
May 24 2012, 10:38 PM
Parastriker
May 24 2012, 09:06 PM
Tsukiyomi
May 24 2012, 12:51 PM
We need to assert our sovereignty, board the chicom vessels, arrest the chinese fisherman.  The chinese will attack and we will get it all on film and then the canos will act.

Allowing the chinese scum to dictate the way this plays out will result in us losing our land.  We need to set the terms, we need to shape the environment, we need to take the offensive even if it means we get in a shooting war. Diplomacy does not work with these a$$holeS.

I agree with you wholesomely, Tsukky.

Better yet, let's add some PAF pressure on those rednecks.

How would you plan to do that?

Bear in mind: if the Chinese do retaliate - which they will in case we fire the first shot -, they will be capable of destroying all our major military assets. And I am certain they would be more than willing to do so.

Another aspect that is forgotten is that the standoff with China is raising Chinese nationalism: not only on the mainland, but also in Taiwan. We should be very careful as it is obvious that the Taiwanese support the ChiCom claim.

Remember that it took France to unite the German states in 1870/71.

They might, but they couldn't.

I said "add pressure" not fire the first shot.

If China could make a close flyby of aircraft and harass fishing boats and not make it as "firing a first shot", why the hell couldn't we?

If we worry about Chinese nationalism, well, let's incite something called as "Socio-political War." It mainly involves giving the real information without any trace of Chinese Propaganda.

Taiwan is at conflict with PRC on the Paracel Islands Issue, if memory serves me right.

Sorry, I have to stop myself, I'm ranting already.

Success through information, victory through disinformation.

"Good leaders make efficient followers. Great leaders make good followers. But true leaders make leaders out of mere followers."

"Measuring the intelligence of a common internet user is as easy as looking at his/her grammar."
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Ayoshi
Member Avatar


China’s sea claims exceed what’s allowed by international law, says Clinton

WASHINGTON—US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Wednesday said that China’s claims in the West Philippine Sea (South China Sea) exceeded what was permitted by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (Unclos) as the Obama administration began a new push to join the 30-year-old treaty.

Two Democratic senators also criticized Beijing’s claims in the West Philippine Sea during a hearing of the Senate committee on foreign relations, where Clinton and top military leaders warned that Washington’s failure to ratify Unclos weakened its support for US allies in the disputed waterway and put the US military at increasing risk of confrontation with China.
Quote:
 
“China and other countries are staking out illegal claims in the South China Sea and elsewhere,” said Democratic Senator John Kerry, chair of the foreign relations committee.

Read More: globalnation.inquirer.net
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
InkognitoAce
Member Avatar
Member
[ *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
They might, but they couldn't.


What makes you so sure?
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God." (G. K. Chesterton)

"Justice forbids, and reason itself forbids, the State to be godless; or to adopt a line of action which would end in godlessness, namely to treat the various religions (as they call them) alike, and to bestow upon them promiscuously equal rights and privileges." (Pope Leo XIII)
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
2 users reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · West Philippine Sea · Next Topic »
Locked Topic