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External Defense Setup; We cannot win by numbers, so how?
Topic Started: Oct 17 2004, 04:38 PM (1,069 Views)
flipzi
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R-A-T-S

Maiba naman po tayo. Instead of just selecting what ships to buy, we should also think about what must we really need to do or have to ensure that our external security preparation will really work for us.

We cannot engage any of our neighbor's naval armada now because we are way behind their current capabilities.

We cannot catch up with them now.

Okay, so how can we at least give our navy a good chance in repulsing (NOT WINNING THE BATTLE) the aggressors?

In my humble (?) opinion, i would suggest that it must be a "naval and air asset" tandem.

The Navy should consider maintaining a squadron or 2 of "strike fighter jets" like that of the F18.

These F18s must carry a "Long Range Anti-Ship Missile" or any missile that can be fired from a safe distance or at a distance that the enemy's SAMs cannot reach, (if there's a such technology now). It may also be guided by another source such as radar guidance systems onboard ships.

http://www.matra-def.fr/docmer_otomat.pdf

With what our economy can give us, i believe we have to consider that setup. Else, our naval armada will only be wiped out by the superior number of our neighbor's fleet.

The best thing for us to do now is to employ the "air and naval asset tandem" in repulsing foreign aggression in the seas.

We may need to setup two or three Naval Air Squadron bases. Bautista AB in Palawan would be good enough to accomodate one of that squadrons. Andrews AB in Zamboanga is another excellent site. Aggressions coming far north may be handled by Basa AB. But i guess it would be ideal if we setup another base in Ilocos Norte or Cagayan. The Naval base in Cagayan may be upgraded to service the ships and air assets complementing the setup.

We would need at least 6 OPVs, with upgraded missile guidance systems to complement the setup.

3 guided-missile frigates and 6 OPVs (each carrying ASW or attack choppers) would be good enough. That handles both typical patrol tasks and external defense concerns.

2 Maritime Patrol Aircraft with ASW capability may also be considered to boost our anti-submarine capability.

These bases must be protected by SAMs also. Modern ELINT systems and more powerful radars must be employed as well to enhance our monitoring and detection capabilities.

1 of the 3 Strike-Fighter squadrons may be assigned to the Strike Wing. This is to maximize the use of these jets. They may provide air support to ground troops in our COIN operations.

The remaining squadrons may be allocated to the 5th Fighter wing, so that both interception and air combat sorties may also be handled by these jets.

All three squadrons though must all be equipped and trained for anti-ship sorties.

7 jets per squadron may be ideal enough. To ensure their survivality, it is important that these jets be made to carry the Long Range Air to Air missiles similar to the ones being carried by the dreaded F14 Tomcat.

Any reactions or suggestion?
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Mercenary
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Assuming there was a Real Defence Budget (which there clearly is not) the Philippine Air Force and Navy could do Joint Procurements of selected equipment.

Spanish built CASA C-212 PATRULLA Maritime Patrol Aircraft are very economical to procure, maintain and operate at about $220.00 per flight hour by the single C-212 AVIOCAR aircraft operated for a few years by the U.S. Coast Guard in Florida.

The PATRULLA MPA can be armed with a pair of light weight, short range anti-ship missiles like Sea Skuka and AS-15TT for dealing with Pirate Scum and to provide an enforcement deterrence. It's got a loiter/mission time of 8+ hours at a radius of about 450-miles and is equipped with FLIR, Radar, LLLTV, Nightsun Searchlights and day/night camera systems.

The PAF & PN could procure eight to ten Patrulla MPA's each. With perhaps another eight C-212 AVIOCARs for conversion training and general light transport rolds between bases. Light Tactical Transport for the PAF is lacking right now. A replacement for the flawed N-22 Nomad is sorely needed. And the AVIOCAR is thee logical replacement with it's rear loading cargo ramp and STOL capability.

Both the C-212 PARULLA and AVIOCAR are the same aircraft design, use the same engines, and airframe. And are very cheap to procure and maintain on a DAILY basis whereas a CN-235 MPA or A P-3 are clearly not.

I'd suggest the PAF procure a small squadron of surplus F-18A/B HORNET fighters for All-Weather Interception and Maritime Strike roles. Ten single seat F-18As and four tandem seat F-18Bs would be a good start.

Two F-18A HORNETs could be maintained on a 24-hour/+5 minute QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) for Maritime Strike over the Sprately's and armed with Penquin Mk 3 for example or better yet Harpoons if the U.S. would release their sale.

IF there were funding for a true Moderization of the Philippine Armed Forces this is what I'd like to see for the futre PAF.

For Defense of the Sprately Island chain and the KIG natural gas fields the 570th COMPOSITE TACTICAL WING could comprise the following:

5 - F-5E Tiger III
4 - C-212 Patrulla MPA
1 - KC-130H Air-Tanker
3 - C-212 Aviocar
9 - AB-412 Griffen (3-SAR/6-Utility)

Two Tiger IIIs maintained on a 24-hr/+5min QRA for Maritime Deterrence armed with short-range ASM like a pair of Penquins with a single KC-130H AAR on standby for Tanker support. Two additional Tiger IIIs on standby daily for either Interception or MD roles with the last one down for maintenance.

Three of the four Patrulla MPAs available daily for a 24-hour coverage over this area with one aircraft in the air per 8+ hour mission.

Two Aviocars operate bi-weekly on shuttle missions between Paga Saga Island and Palawan transporting relief personnel and light cargo up to about 6,000Lbs worth per sortie.

Two Griffen Medium lift/Medium range Helicopters for Search & Rescue with one on 15-min standby during the day & another on 45-min standby at night. Three Griffens for Special Forces Support available daily. One additional unarmed for general base Utility roles with the last two down for maintenance.

Other Joint Procurement programs the PAF & PN could implement are:

AB-412 GRIFFEN medium lift, multi-role helicopters for a variety of roles:

Philippine Navy - ASW, Anti-Surface Warfare, SAR, Marine Light Assualt.

Phil' Air Force - SAR, Light Assualt, Utility, and Special Forces Support.

The Forteen F-18A/B HORNET multi-role fighters would all be based at Basa Air Base on Luzon with the 5th Tactical Fighter Wing.

Six single F-18A's would be on a 24-hr/+5min QRA. Four each armed with two Python IV Dogfight & two Mica BVR AAMs for Interception and two armed with anti-ship missiles. Two more for training and two down for maintenance.

The PAF's 353rd COMPOSITE TACTICAL WING in the south the following types of aircraft would be permanately based:

12 - Su-25UBK Scorpian - (Radar-equipped) Close Air Support & precision Ground Attack UpGraded by Israeli's IAI for all weather/night operations.

8 - OV-10A Bronco - Forward Air Control & COIN

10 - AH-1F Cobra - Gunship

30 - Huey II - Light Assualt & Medivac (25/5)

220th AIR LIFT WING - Mactan Air Base, Cebu

Would have a permanent detachment of:

8 - F-5E Tiger IIIs - Interception of arms smuggling aircraft.

4 - RF-5E Tiger Eye - All-weather armed Reconnaise Aircraft

2 - KC-130H - Air-to-air refueling Tankers

6 - UH-60G Pavehawk - Combat SAR helicopters armed with a pair of forward-firing 20mm Giat cannon pods (180-rds each) and cabin mted, sside firing, light machine guns.











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flipzi
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R-A-T-S

Even with my own analysis on your selection, i can agree, as an enthusiast though, that your pick is worth considering.

Tiger III, Cobras and F18s?

Excellent choice :thumb:
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" People don't care what we know until they know we care. "


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Singa Lion
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and how will you be able to acomplish that in due time before the chinese start swallowing all of your spratly islands in possession?
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The SAF is an armed force , not a civilian corporation. Its mission is to defeat its enemies, ruthlessly and completely. Its an instrument of controlled fury, designed to visit death and destruction of its foes...soldiers must have steel in their souls ..must learn in war to kill and not to flinch, to destroy and not to feel pity, to be a flaming sword in the righteous cause of national survival.
-BG Lee , 1984
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flipzi
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R-A-T-S

Singa Lion
Oct 29 2004, 05:43 PM
and how will you be able to acomplish that in due time before the chinese start swallowing all of your spratly islands in possession?

The Scarboroagh issue is just one of the manifestations of a stupid President that time.

That will not be repeated.

The military have learned from that.
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" Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution "


" People don't care what we know until they know we care. "


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apo lakay
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The philippines cannot win by numbers. what we need is a force that will make the enemy think twice before they attack. right the PN does not have the funds to buy 3 frigates, 12 OPVs, 8 missile corvettes and 36 patrol boats and FACs. what the PN can do is to upgrade its capabilities. MOST important thing ANTI-SHIP MISSILES. as long as the philippines does not have these forget about a real defense. EVen the Cyclone the most advanced and newest ship in the navy is lightly armed with a light 25mm gun taken from PN stocks. how cna we get anti-ship missiles? get missiles first before talking about defense.

some things to consider, the MExican navy bought 2 Israeli Corvettes/FACs with helicopter facilites. the INS geoula and aliya have been sold which have weapons from SAAR 4 FACs (no Barak systems, no harpoons just gabriel IIIs, CIWS, 2 typhoon mounted 20mm guns, 50 caliber guns) . 2 for $60 million minus the helicpters, thats $30million per ship. the deal includes training, refurbishment and support. the philippines got the Cyclone for $30 million also, it came with a refurbishment, modification of ramp for Special Operations Boats, 2 years worth of spares, maintenance from the US, but no weapons, the PN had to mount their own weapons from PN stocks which itself came from decommisioned ships. but the problem is that the Cyclone was paid by US funds. the mexicans paid for their ships themselves. the PN can buy 3 ships SAAR 4 or SAAR 4.5, especially stress the fact that the PN is to get thm with BARAK VLS. pick only one missile mainly the longer range harpoon and CIWS. take out the gabriels and 50caliber machine guns and put torpedoe tubes instead. try to get one of them with a helicopter facilities. the israelis will modify these ships to customer specifications. it is interesting to note that the Mexican navy got a lot of flack domestically when the sale was announced because more than 60% of the population are in poverty but still buying weapons. but the MExican navy reasoned that the navy needs these ships to protect Mexico's oil sites 85% of which are in the coast and will be protecting Mexico's #1 export. so the PN can use the same argument that they need these to protect the Malampaya natural gas reserves.

so thats 3 Corvette/FACs (2 out any time, 1 for refits) , heavily armed with weapons usually found on frigates. but the SSMs will be as great only as it gets over the horizon targetting. the harpoon has a range of over 60 miles but SSMs can only effectively target ships only 15-20 miles away, over the horizon planes coordinates are needed to make the missile work. this can be done by planes and helicopters. surveilance planes are needed. for surveilance and targetting missions. the PN can buy the E-2C radar plane. great for the airforce and navy. then convert some (4) of the PAF's Bell-212 or 412 aircraft to be used as navalized upgrades includin surveilance equipment, surface-search radar, and canbe armed with sonar buoy, and torpedoes and need be light SSMs. station one of the 4 semi-permenantly at atienza, mactan, zambo, and puerto princesa. or more of these Bell-212 can be bought from the israelis, who are selling their surplus examples. or the PAF can transfer some of the S-76 aircraft and upgraded to S-76C standard. what do these helicopters have in common? twin engined!

MPAs can be grat, the PN can get P-3 aicraft with harpoon missiles. or indonesian CN-235MPA armed with exocet or harpoons.

these (the 3 FACs, surplus helicopters) cna be bought from the israelis. the PN however does not have funds at the moment. and the most pressing need for the PN external defense is anti-ship missiles.

some note even with limited funds the PN has been able to get these projects within the past 1 or 2 years.

*1 Cyclone FAC/amphibious ship
*radar stations around the archaepeligo, especially sea lanes and vital choke points.
*purchase of 2 more south korean Patrol Killer Medium or Sea Killer (SK-Dolphin) which bring the PKM fleet to 8 units.
*refurbish the PKM fleet
*new stabilized mounts for the main guns on the Halter Class patrol boats.
*refurbishment of all 3 jacinto class corvettes and weapons upgrade. 2 jacintos have been in dock and only 1 operational, these refurbishements will repair them and a weapons upgrade of a new surface-search radar and new fire control systems as well as a new 25mm gun.
*commisioning of 1 more new LCUs. total of 7 new LCUs now in fleet.
*1 or 2 USCG cutters (point class cutter)

developing and in negotiations include:
*4 CB-90 amphibious boats from sweden. this is most likely to pass. funding is from the PN and from malampaya since 1 of the CB-980s is permenantly to protect malampaya. all that is needed now are the final testing phases, once this passes, 1 will be ready for delivery and the others later.

*2 Singaporean Endurance class LST/LPD/LSD. the PN has saved up funds to refurbish more mothballed WWII-class LSTs and to buy frank besson LSV, or to lease or purchase the 2 Newport Class. but again the PMC chose the Endurance Class against other options. the philippines as well as the US which is going to provide funds for this sale are already in the negotiating phase for 2 of these.

*Transfer of more USCG ships. some of the PN wishlists include High and Medium Endurance Cutters. as well as more Point Class cutters and some of the Cyclones. the US paid for the last cyclone so this time the PN needs to pay for it itself since other nations has expressed interst for it and these countries (Sri Lanka, Egypt, Colomnia are some that are interested in buying them) are willing to pay for these ships and not rely on them as aid.
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ctrlaltdel
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Quote:
 
MOST important thing ANTI-SHIP MISSILES. as long as the philippines does not have these forget about a real defense. EVen the Cyclone the most advanced and newest ship in the navy is lightly armed with a light 25mm gun taken from PN stocks. how cna we get anti-ship missiles? get missiles first before talking about defense.


Can the cyclone be fitted with anti-ship missiles?
if so how many could it carry?
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apo lakay
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The Cyclone(s) can be heavily armed with missiles. The Cyclone hull is a copy of the Province clas missile ships used by Oman and Kenya. Oman has arms its province class ships with 1 76mm oto-breda compact DP gun, and 6-8 Exocet missiles, kenya has 1 76mm OTO breda gun and 4 otomat missiles. the Cyclone in PN service was modified like all the Cyclones to carry and accomodate Special Forces units. dont need missiles that big, just light missiles is enough (light SSMs have about 20- mile range, and harpoons or exocet or otomat have ranges over 50 mile but without over-the-horizon targetig, these medium/long rnage missiles can only target ships 15 miles away), preferably Penguins. again the PN cant buy heavier guns for the Cyclone, how can they get Missiles?
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flipzi
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Cant buy these?

I dont think so.

WE CAN BUY THESE BUT THE IDIOTS IN CONGRESS ARE DOING NOTHING BUT PRUMULGATE LAWS THAT WILL BENEFIT THEIR BUSINESS.

:exactly:

Dont you know that the Congressmen are among those who opposed the TOTAL LOG BAN proposal then?

That's because there are lots of Congressmen who are benefitting from illegal and legal logging.

Even former House Speaker Ramon Mitra was among those who turned the Aurora forests into what we consider today as "landslide-prone areas".

:bs:
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" Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them! - Art. II Sec 1, Philippine Constitution "


" People don't care what we know until they know we care. "


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