Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Philippines Defense Forces Forum. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Philippines & Vietnam in the South China Sea; updates, discussions
Topic Started: Mar 29 2012, 08:20 PM (1,954 Views)
Pninety8
Member
[ *  *  * ]
Joining Forces in South China Sea Defense Procurement (thediplomat.com)
Quote:
 


....

Therefore, in the business of contested sovereignty, what matters is not the ownership of several technologically advanced warships, which would not be available for year-long patrols over all designated EEZ sectors (bearing in mind the need for dry dock repairs and non-operational sea trials), but rather the ability to deploy less technically capable yet more numerous patrol craft or cutters so as to maintain a constant EEZ enforcement presence. Indeed, Beijing realizes this and deploys the Chinese Coast Guard in force in the waters near the Spratly Islands. If the Philippines and Vietnam wish to hold on to the South China Sea waters still under their control, they need to ramp up their maritime capabilities.

However, considering the comparatively modest Vietnamese and Filipino defense budgets, any sizeable purchase of patrol vessels needs to be accomplished economically, and this is where these states can emulate the EU's collective procurement of the Tornado and Eurofighter combat aircraft programs.

In the 1970s and from the 1990s to early 2000s, the Tornado and Eurofighter were developed by Britain, Germany and Italy in the first case, and by Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain in the second. These collective aircraft projects enabled not only the sharing of development costs, but more importantly the production of enough standardized aircraft so that economies of scale and more affordable unit costs could be realized. Partially applying such a collective acquisition approach to a joint Philippine-Vietnam endeavor could involve:

1) The building of standardized hulls and the required crew fittings in a politically supportive third country ....

2) The joint purchase of common propulsion and engine systems....

3) The joint procurement of non-security sensitive navigation systems....

After this basic construction, Hanoi and Manila would then take delivery of their agreed upon shares of the fleet and have sensitive components like radar, communications suites, automatic cannon with fire control systems and even higher order capabilities like submarine detecting sonar and additional armament, installed at their respective naval facilities. If all this can be accomplished, it could be a budget friendly avenue for Vietnam and the Philippines to beef up their coast guard or auxiliary navy capabilities.

....

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
MSantor
Member Avatar

PDFF Mod Group
Interaksyon

Quote:
 
PH, Vietnam agree to push for cooperation, rule of law in South China Sea
By: Sara Fabunan, InterAksyon.com
October 17, 2014 8:36 PM

MANILA - The Philippines and Vietnam on Friday agreed to continue their cooperation toward maintaining peace and stability in the South China Sea and promoting the importance of the rule of law in addressing maritime disputes in the region.

Foreign Affairs Secretary Albert del Rosario had a bilateral meeting with Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Affairs Minister Pham Binh Minh of Vietnam at the fringes of Asia Europe Meeting (ASEM) 10th Summit, which sees 51 heads of states and governments, ministers and senior officials of 51 Asian and European countries, ASEAN and the European Union converge in the northern Italian city of Milan.

Both officials expressed concern about the escalation of tension in the South China Sea.

Both countries also agreed that they will work together to bring the issue to the Leaders of Europe and Asia during the Retreat session slated Friday.

(...SNIPPED)


"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." - Henry Ford

"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill


"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking"- Gen. George S. Patton
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hong Nam
Member Avatar
Bought by China

Pninety8
Oct 8 2014, 10:53 PM
Joining Forces in South China Sea Defense Procurement (thediplomat.com)

Partially applying such a collective acquisition approach to a joint Philippine-Vietnam endeavor could involve:

1) The building of standardized hulls and the required crew fittings in a politically supportive third country ....

2) The joint purchase of common propulsion and engine systems....

3) The joint procurement of non-security sensitive navigation systems....


The South China Sea and Joint Defense Procurement
Can ASEAN members join forces on defense procurement? It's more complex than it seems.

By Koh Swee Lean Collin
October 20, 2014



Warships Do Matter

Both the Philippines and Vietnam have separate coastguards distinct from navies, which means having to divide scarce national resources between them. Competition for funding can influence the numbers of coastguard vessels that can be procured in lieu of navy warships. One ought not to be too sanguine about convincing defense planners in Hanoi and Manila of the necessity to buy more coastguard-type patrol vessels instead of warships.


How Many to Build?

A major hurdle is that participants need to agree on these basic technical requirements that are subject to differing threat perceptions and operational needs.

Deeper thinking is also required about the numbers of ships required to hit the minimum threshold for economies of scale. Each participant needs to have a long-term perspective of potential security challenges and the operational, technical and fiscal requirements to sustain this capability. The time taken by defense establishments, each imbued with its own set of cultures and doctrines, to reach consensus can be lengthy.

Moreover, the question is whether joint procurement involving just two participants can really achieve economies of scale. Evolving threat perceptions and priorities also pose risks to commitments.



Not Simply About Building More

The point about less technically capable patrol craft or cutters deserves attention. Ships optimized for EEZ operations represent a different category altogether. EEZ-optimized patrol vessels in today's market are designed with contemporary and future maritime security challenges in mind.

These ships are of course less expensive than technologically complex warships but this does not mean they are inexpensive to purchase, especially if they are required in significant number. The oil rig standoff made Hanoi realize that its future patrol assets also require strengthened hulls robust enough to withstand ramming by Chinese vessels. Such technical enhancements entail further costs.

If such patrol vessels already cost more, will the Philippines and Vietnam be able to procure them in appreciable quantity even with economies of scale factored in? And bear in mind that construction and delivery of the ships is not all: Maintenance and repair, fuel, training and infrastructural costs all have to be considered.



Political Winds of Influence

Defense procurements - unilateral or joint - cannot be trivialized as a commercial enterprise. Defense procurements are political issues.

Japan with its recent relaxation of arms export policy and a prime minister more predisposed towards policies that incur Beijing's displeasure. Yet political interests do not stay static, especially with changes to the incumbent political party or prime minister.

Foot-dragging over political sensitivities can cause delays resulting in valuable opportunity costs for the buyers. By the time Tokyo decides to risk setting back Sino-Japanese ties even further by selling ships to a Philippine-Vietnam joint purchase, China may have already raced ahead with more ships and consolidated control over the SCS.



Modus Vivendi Over the SCS?

Hanoi and Manila have long cooperated to some degree in the South China Sea but recent camaraderie. Despite the misgivings over the oil rig incident, Hanoi took rapid steps thereafter to improve ties with China and hesitated at following Manila in referring the Scarborough Shoal dispute with Beijing to international arbitration.

Manila's Kalayaan Island Group overlaps into Vietnam's Truong Sa claims and these two countries also have a history of bilateral maritime incidents. There is no guarantee that just because both are ASEAN members, they will not come to blows in the SCS in the future, as the Thai-Cambodian border clashes attest.

For now, the Philippines and Vietnam enjoy a convergence of interests in the SCS but what about the future and its implications for any joint defense procurement?



The Diplomat







Edited by Hong Nam, Oct 21 2014, 11:52 PM.

Posted Image
Constructions Mecaniques de Normandie - C Sword 90



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hong Nam
Member Avatar
Bought by China

US think tank: Philippines illegally occupying 2 islands in Spratlys
By Camille Diola (philstar.com)
November 12, 2014


Posted Image
Philippine claims to Scarborough Shoal and the Kalayaan Island Group outside the main archipelago. CNA Graphics


While the Philippines has a superior legal claim to the China-controlled Panatag (Scarborough) Shoal, it is "illegally occupying" two other small islands in the Kalayaan (Spratly) island group claimed by Vietnam, a research firm said.

Researchers from Virginia-based think tank CNA argued that the Philippines cannot lawfully classify the whole Kalayaan group under its sovereignty.

At least two of the maritime features under Kalayaan - Thitu (Pagasa) Island and Loaita (Kota) Island - also claimed by Vietnam devolve from a legal annexation document issued by the French colony in 1933. The annexation was backed by France's maritime activities prior to World War II as well as evidence that the claims were not abandoned after the war, the paper noted.

It is also possible that Northeast Cay (Panata Island) should be included the list of unlawful Philippine occupations, "but more evidence is needed," it said.

The study, meanwhile, credits the Philippines for having superior claims based on "effective occupations" and "first discovery" of four high-tide features in Kalayaan, namely, West York (Likas) Island, Nanshan (Lawak) Island, Flat (Patag) Island and Lankiam (Parola) Cay.


Philstar



Posted Image
Constructions Mecaniques de Normandie - C Sword 90



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hong Nam
Member Avatar
Bought by China

An interesting report that's understood better if read from cover to cover. But if you want to instantly grab the concept of my preceding post (or just simply to lazy) move straight to page 54 of this research paper....
Quote:
 

A CNA OCCASIONAL PAPER - The South China Sea: Assessing U.S. Policy and options for the FutureMichael McDevitt
November 2014

What this report covers

This report will provide a detailed recounting of existing U.S. policy, and then conclude by weighing additional policy approaches. Along the way it will address the U.S. interests that are involved in the South China Sea. It will explain briefly what international laws apply to the South China Sea and detail the "rules" that Washington's policy insists all parties follow. It will then provide an overview of the legal merits of the respective claims to the islands and features in the South China Sea.

This overview of sovereignty claims is presented not to argue for a change in existing U.S. policy but to provide policy makers with some understanding of the legal complexity of the claims issue.






Edited by Hong Nam, Nov 17 2014, 12:59 PM.

Posted Image
Constructions Mecaniques de Normandie - C Sword 90



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Andres Boning
Member
[ *  *  * ]
Hong Nam
Nov 17 2014, 12:06 PM
US think tank: Philippines illegally occupying 2 islands in Spratlys
By Camille Diola (philstar.com)
November 12, 2014


Posted Image
Philippine claims to Scarborough Shoal and the Kalayaan Island Group outside the main archipelago. CNA Graphics


While the Philippines has a superior legal claim to the China-controlled Panatag (Scarborough) Shoal, it is "illegally occupying" two other small islands in the Kalayaan (Spratly) island group claimed by Vietnam, a research firm said.

Researchers from Virginia-based think tank CNA argued that the Philippines cannot lawfully classify the whole Kalayaan group under its sovereignty.

At least two of the maritime features under Kalayaan - Thitu (Pagasa) Island and Loaita (Kota) Island - also claimed by Vietnam devolve from a legal annexation document issued by the French colony in 1933. The annexation was backed by France's maritime activities prior to World War II as well as evidence that the claims were not abandoned after the war, the paper noted.

It is also possible that Northeast Cay (Panata Island) should be included the list of unlawful Philippine occupations, "but more evidence is needed," it said.

The study, meanwhile, credits the Philippines for having superior claims based on "effective occupations" and "first discovery" of four high-tide features in Kalayaan, namely, West York (Likas) Island, Nanshan (Lawak) Island, Flat (Patag) Island and Lankiam (Parola) Cay.


Philstar


PH Illegally occupying 2 islands in Spratly? Let them "Think the Tank!"

If they can ask all the rest or each one of the claimants, occupants in Spratly's to move out first, only then PH can consider moving out (if ever) and would be the last one to follow. "Mauna muna sila" :armyLol:

Bakit? How far is the Vietnam mainland's proximity to Spratly Islands, compared to Philippines (Palawan)??

Hence this "Pala-isipan";
O baka naman mas makaya nila kasi bolahin ang Vietnam kaysa sa atin in the future??? "It's all about the Oil!"
Edited by Andres Boning, Nov 17 2014, 06:58 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hong Nam
Member Avatar
Bought by China

Hence the statement...
Quote:
 

What this report covers

It will then provide an overview of the legal merits of the respective claims to the islands and features in the South China Sea.

This overview of sovereignty claims is presented not to argue for a change in existing U.S. policy but to provide policy makers with some understanding of the legal complexity of the claims issue.



** It does not take sides. It just brings out into the open for those who have "little" understanding on the issues at hand and what each country has for an argument.
- Which is why it is best read out in its entirety.

** The Philippines' claim is of particular significance to U.S. policy makers because of the U.S. - Phil MDT of 1951 and how it might involve the U.S. in a conflict with China.
- Which is why the U.S. is vague with regards to defending you if the Spratly Islands are attacked while outright supporting the Japanese on the Senkaku Islands.

** It sucks big time. However, both our objections to this does not change the facts. Unfortunately, according to international law... It's the only thing that matters. Only by knowing what the problems are first is one being able to solve it. You are supposed to face it head-on. Our opinions are based on emotions and what little knowledge we have of the law. Which sadly doesn't amount to anything.




Edited by Hong Nam, Nov 19 2014, 04:26 PM.

Posted Image
Constructions Mecaniques de Normandie - C Sword 90



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
MSantor
Member Avatar

PDFF Mod Group
Vietnam and Philippine naval joint patrols? Note the highlighted portion in the article below.

Reuters

Quote:
 

Vietnam warships visit Philippines amid South China Sea dispute

(...SNIPPED)

"We are trying to hold joint patrols and operations in the Spratlys, including search-and-rescue operations," said a Philippine naval official, referring to a disputed island chain. He declined to be identified because he was not authorized to talk to the press.

"We are not trying to challenge China's naval superiority in the disputed area. We have no intention to heighten any tension. These are peaceful activities, like sharing of experiences and best practices."

(...SNIPPED)

"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." - Henry Ford

"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill


"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking"- Gen. George S. Patton
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ayoshi
Member Avatar


PHL, Vietnam ironing out details of strategic partnership amid China’s reclamation work | gma news - April 20, 2015
Quote:
 
“The details of the proposed strategic partnership are still being defined and worked out by the two countries. That is the current status,” Communications Secretary Herminio Coloma Jr. told reporters.

<snipped>

Vietnam seeks bilateral talks

In a separate press briefing, Department of Foreign Affairs Assistant (DFA) Secretary Luis Cruz revealed that Vietnam asked the Philippines for a bilateral meeting during the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Summit next week.

“Vietnam has already requested us, so we are processing this. It has not come to the attention of President yet, but we will bring this to the attention of the President, that we indeed have received this request,” Cruz said.

He added that if the bilateral meeting will push through, China’s recent actions in the South China Sea will “definitely” be top agenda.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
MSantor
Member Avatar

PDFF Mod Group
ABS-CBN

Quote:
 
LOOK: Vietnam reclaiming land in South China Sea

By David Brunnstrom and Ben Blanchard

WASHINGTON/BEIJING - Newly released images show Vietnam has carried out significant land reclamation at two sites in the disputed South China Sea, though the scale and pace is dwarfed by that of China, a U.S. research institute said.

In response, China condemned Vietnam's actions, and said its work in the region was part of an obligation to the international community to improve navigation safety and contribute to science and research, including building observation platforms to monitor sea levels.

The photographs, shared with Reuters by Washington's Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), show an expansion of the land area of Vietnamese-controlled Sand Cay and West London Reef in the Spratly archipelago and the addition of buildings.

(...SNIPPED)

"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." - Henry Ford

"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill


"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking"- Gen. George S. Patton
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · West Philippine Sea · Next Topic »
Add Reply