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HK Bus Hostage Tragedy 2010 (aftermath. etc.); updates, discussions
Topic Started: Aug 23 2010, 12:08 PM (6,540 Views)
Fmr TOPP Awardee 82'PNP
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spraret
Aug 25 2010, 01:16 PM
Jackie Chan: If they killed the guy sooner, they will say why not negotiate first? If they negotiate first, they ask why not kill the guy sooner? So sad

Negotiation will always comes first but it should'nt be dragged for too long if the demand of the hostage taker emerges to be nonsense or impossible. It should be noted that Capt. Mendoza was armed to the teeth whereby presumption of danger should be upheld that immediate and decisive action should be swiftly undertaken to disable or put him down.
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"GUILTY CONSCIENCE NEEDS NO ACCUSER"
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spraret
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inquirerdotnet: Autopsy report shows that hostage victims bore GSWs on the neck and head. No report they were slashed.
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raider1011


israeli
Aug 25 2010, 01:17 PM
until now, i'm wondering why the MPD decided not to ask the SAF for reinforcement despite knowing the fact that they're too ill-equipped to deal with the hostage crisis unlike the SAF.

To protect their secrets? So the person with a grievance (in case he's taken alive) doesn't blurt them out to the wrong people? Atin-atin lang?
God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless.

|| Chester W. Nimitz

Loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it.

|| Mark Twain
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mazingu
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^^^

highly likely since Mendoza was MPD
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israeli
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idiots at the Senate strike again!


Senators nix news blackout during hostage situations
GMANews.tv
08/25/2010 | 05:36 PM


At least three senators on Wednesday thumbed down the idea of imposing a news blackout during hostage-taking situations.

Senator Loren Legarda described as "unnecessary" Cebu Rep. Luis Quisumbing's House Bill No. 2737, which seeks to impose a news blackout during hostage-takings and other similar situations.

"I don't think a law is necessary," said Legarda, adding that passing and enacting legislation takes years.

Senate President Juan Ponce Enrile suggested that the authorities should just lay down some ground rules for the media during such incidents.

"Hindi na kailangan yun (You don't need that), all you have to do is to put a cordon where the media can stay at a distance," he said in a separate interview.

He added that coverage should be allowed as long as it does not hamper police operations. "Pabayaan na natin yun (We should let that pass)," he said.

Senator Ramon Bong Revilla Jr., for his part, said if a news blackout is really needed, the authorities can just coordinate with the media outfits.

"Dapat mag-usap ang media at ang authorities (The media and authorities should talk it out)," he said.

Quisumbing said the primary intention of his proposed legislation is to protect the lives of policemen and soldiers in such situations.
"To secure peace is to prepare for war." - Carl Von Clausewitz
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seWer Rat
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amateur sewer cleaner

NCRPO Chief L. Santiago confirmed that SWAT teams who assaulted the bus are MPD.
To avoid criticism, write nothing, say nothing, do nothing, BE NOTHING.
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spearhead
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seven bravo
Aug 25 2010, 12:40 PM
fatbat_mca
Aug 25 2010, 07:56 AM
Tormentor
Aug 24 2010, 03:20 PM
mazingu
Aug 24 2010, 11:21 AM
Found it, posted by Saver here http://pdff.sytes.net/index.php?showtopic=4729&st=75

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why is this vehicle not present at quirino

PNP-SAF offered its own assault team which is better-equipped and better-trained than the district SWAT teams but MPD refused asserting their SWAT team can do the job as well.

are you sure? do you have a reliable source bec as far as i know the SAF is not a hostage rescue unit but an anti insurgency, anti terrorism and anti-coup force.

the PNP has SWAT teams in the districts specifically for hostage rescue and raids of criminal dens.

Just to confirm SAF had alpha and bravo teams on standby, fully equipped & ready - this was communicated through proper command channels but nothing came of it.

Well were they trainied for this kind of situation? We need confirmation about this issue. Because some says they're not even trained for bus-type hostage take down.

Sometimes you will know if an elite unit is really trained for this, for having the right tools and equipments.

THOSE PNP SWAT LACKED DETERMINATION, TRAINING (THEY WERE TOO SLOW TO REACT), EQUIPMENTS, AND TOOLS!

MISSING EQUIPMENTS
>2-4 10 ft ladders FOR BOTH SIDES OF THE BUS.
>vehicles to carry troops to the bus' sides with open carriage with the ladders.
>explosive devices to blow up the windows (NOT VANDALIZING IT WITH SLEDGEHAMMERS).

MISSING TOOLS/GUDGETS:
>submachine guns (NOT PISTOLS OR LONGER RIFLES)
>throat mikes for radio communication system (earpiece or headphones can be obstracting to the face and can fall off easily.
>FLASHBANGS.

Anyone here noticed how that cop threw the teargas canister many times for like what, with no quick actions after?
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato

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raider1011


spearhead
Aug 25 2010, 09:56 PM
Well were they trainied for this kind of situation? We need confirmation about this issue. Because some says they're not even trained for bus-type hostage take down.

Sometimes you will know if an elite unit is really trained for this, for having the right tools and equipments.

It's on the PNP SAF website. They're "trained for hostage rescue operations even aboard aircraft and /or moving vehicles". The second link has photos showing SAF operators practicing a hostage taking scenario aboard an MRT train, using ladders.

raider1011
Aug 24 2010, 09:12 PM
So what happened?  The PNP had people who were ready and willing to do the job, but someone stopped them from doing it?  The absence of PNP SAF is an injustice, to the victims and the organization both.

Quote:
 
Sureshock –Urban Counter-Revolutionary Warfare Course

The Urban Counter-Revolutionary Warfare Course, also known as Sureshock, is one of the course offered exclusively by the SAF. It is especially designed to enable police officers to respond to crises and terrorist incident in mostly urban situations. With Sureshock, students master modern anti-terrorist methods such as how to conduct hostage rescue operations even aboard as aircraft and /or moving vehicles. They imbibe interventions. They learn, for instance, how to breach or rappel to enter an assault area from above, and extricate hostages safely. Further still, the expertise of SAF troopers with firearms are honed so that they are able to handle these with deadly accuracy, speed, and care. The close-quarters battle is the trademark of the Sureshock. Conducted almost always amid smoke, darkness, and deadly fumes while fully outfitted and armed, a team or teams of SAF troopers clear a building systematically and methodically. This approach can be either covert or done is absolute silence where commands are given through hand signals, or it could be dynamic, as in assault conducted in the midst of a raging firefight.

http://www.pnpsaf.org

Since February 2003 our instructors have provided training to selected members of the PNP Special Action Force Commandos inclusive of the First Special Action Battalion; the Second Battalion; the Rapid Deployment Battalion - Crisis Response Group;  and facilitated as special instructor to the Urban Counter Revolutionary Warfare Course (Sure Shock) Class 51, 58, 59, 60; Commando Trainees - class 23 & 24; SAF Operation Orientation Course (SAF-OOC) - Class 03; PNP-Air Marshall program entitled the  Covert Escort Security Service for National Air-carriers (CESSNA); and the Special Weapons and Tactical Operation Course (SWATOC) Class 02-2003.

SCENARIO SIMULATION TRAINING

As part of our exposure and in-depth knowledge of terrorism incidents, The Helquin Group provides instructors with tactical and strategic inputs to facilitate scenario simulation training to specialized counterterrorist units in preparation of hostage rescue exercises and high-risk incidents.

Since 2003 The Helquin Group has assisted in the execution of scenario simulation exercises entitled ‘Train Hostage Rescue Operations’ as part of the PNP-SAF Urban Counter Revolutionary Warfare Course.

In addition, The Helquin Group has provided visual training aids and tactical development skills for the success of the exercise including of train hostage incident case studies, train specification and mass public rail transport operations overview, staging area preparation, and the execution of covert approach, dynamic entries, and hostage-prisoner control methods.

http://helquingroup.viviti.com/our-services
God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless.

|| Chester W. Nimitz

Loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it.

|| Mark Twain
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spearhead
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AND SAY WHO SUPPORTS OUR CRITICISM? Read on.

British expert tells how hostages should have been rescued
LINK



By Ma. Rosanna Mina, abs-cbnNEWS.com
Posted at 08/25/2010 5:43 PM | Updated as of 08/25/2010 5:44 PM



MANILA, Philippines – The Manila Police District (MPD) could have confronted the August 23 Manila bus hostage-taking with better equipment and strategies, a British security analyst said.

A total of 8 Hong Kong tourists as well as the hostage-taker, former senior police inspector Rolando Mendoza, were killed in the 11-hour siege of a tourist bus.

Charles Shoebridge, who has worked in counter-terrorism with the British Army and Scotland Yard, told BBC News that there were 10 things that the MPD got wrong in dealing with siege. The article "Ten things the Philippines bus siege police got wrong" is the most shared and 3rd most read story of the BBC News website as of posting time.

Although the Philippine policemen were courageous, he said that they lacked training, equipment and determination.

hoebridge said the detachment deployed to the Rizal Park was evidently not trained to deal with hostage-taking.

He cited that an officer put some tear gas inside the bus but “to what effect was not clear.”

The Briton elaborated on the MPD’s lack of equipment, saying that they should have brought short submachine guns instead of pistols and assault rifles because they are more apt to use in confined places.

“They had no ladders to get through the windows. They smashed the windows but didn’t know what to do next,” Shoebridge added. “They almost looked like a group of vandals.”


He even mentioned that it took a long time for the policemen to smash the windows of the bus. He said that explosive charges (frame charges) would have knocked broken windows and doors in an instant.

Moreover, the British security expert said that the officers showed their lack of determination when they got out of the bus after Mendoza fired off some gunshots.

“They showed great courage to go on board. It’s very crowded, just one aisle down the middle of the bus. But once you get on board it’s not unexpected you are going to be fired at,” he noted.

“Squads like this have to be made up of very special people, specially trained and selected for their characteristics of courage, determination and aggression. In this case they acted as 99% of the population would have, which was to turn round and get out. They didn't seem to have the necessary determination and aggression to follow the attack through.”


Lost opportunities

Shoebridge then mentioned that the MPD missed several chances in the hostage-taking incident.

Firstly, the police failed to disarm their former colleague who was dismissed due to an Ombudsman ruling in 2008. The case stemmed from extortion charges filed against him by a student.

“The negotiators were so close to him, and he had his weapon hanging down by his side. He could have been disabled without having to kill him.”

Secondly, the police could have shot Mendoza as there were instances when he was just standing alone.


“You are dealing with an unpredictable and irrational individual. The rule should be that if in the course of negotiations an opportunity arises to end the situation decisively, it should be taken,” he stated.

Shoebridge also said that authorities could have reinstated Mendoza so that the hostage-taking could have been resolved much earlier.

“I wondered why the authorities just didn't give in to all of his demands,” he remarked.

“A promise extracted under force is not a promise that you are required to honor. Nobody wants to give in to the demands of terrorists, but in a situation like this, which did not involve a terrorist group, or release of prisoners, they could have just accepted his demands. He could be reinstated in the police - and then be immediately put in prison for life for hostage taking.”

Another “miss” of the police was using hostage-taker’s brother, SPO2 Gregorio Mendoza, to negotiate. The police even arrested Gregorio for being an accessory to the crime.

It has been said that Gregorio’s arrest agitated his brother which led to the bloodbath in the tourist bus.

“Relatives and close friends can be a double-edged sword, Mr. Shoebridge says,” the BBC News wrote.


Media and crowd control

he British analyst also cited the media coverage as it caused Mendoza to be aware of what was happening around him.

He said it was a “crucial defect in the police handling.”

Shoebridge said the police could have prevented the media from reporting at the scene by placing screens and barriers in the area.

He added that there was no element of surprise, thanks to the media’s extensive coverage.

But he said that the policemen were also at fault for not distracting the hostage-taker and even moving “laboriously slowly.”


The police also failed to safeguard the public. A bystander, a 10-year-old boy, was hurt following the gunfire.

“When you saw the camera view from above, it was clear there was little command and control of the public on the ground,” Shoebridge said.


How to do it

The Serbian Special Forces, meantime, demonstrated how to break into a bus in a training video uploaded on YouTube.

The video entitled “special operation serbia,” however, was not aimed at educating the Philippine police as it was uploaded on January 29, 2008.

It showed the Serbian Special Forces assaulting a parked bus by smashing and firing shots at the windows and using a ramp to quickly enter the bus through the windows.

The MPD did not have a ramp or ladder when they were trying to get into the tourist bus on Monday.

Aside from breaking into the bus, the video also showed the Serbian Special Forces scaling from helicopter ropes, breaking into a parked train car, scaling down a building, stopping a convoy and target shooting.

Netizen akosironin commented on the YouTube video’s page: “Wish Manila Police was this good.” – With a report from BBC News
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato

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spearhead
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HERE'S the video of the Special Operation Serbia:
VIDEO LINK

Hmm they too actually used pistols inside the bus. And seems like ramps are more effective than ladders for faster take down entry to the bus.
"Men of War must learn the art of numbers or he will not know how to array his troops." - Plato

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