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Retitled: China's "De facto" Control of Panatag Shoal/Bajo De Masinloc; Old Title: China ropes off Scarborough Shoal
Topic Started: Aug 10 2012, 07:38 PM (25,218 Views)
zwahzhal
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Let diplomatics & politics do their diplomacy. Let defense do their defenses. It should be a 2-way. An arbitrator once said that you just can't let your words do the talking, you must do "show" effort that you are protecting your property. That's what we must do but should be done with NEITHER approval NOR interference/partnership by Chi govt. It is a 1 deceitful way of legalizing and expanding their entries. The Chi vessels should be roped-out or roped-under. That's my stand. Pasensya sila. :rifle:
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zwahzhal
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http://globalnation.inquirer.net/87071/chinas-territorial-claims-in-west-philippine-sea-mere-claims-not-rights-dfa-exec

MANILA, Philippines – China’s territorial claims in the West Philippine Sea (South China Sea) does not give it the right to the hotly contested territory because they are “just mere claims” and do not adhere to international laws.

“There is a fundamental difference between entitlements and claims under international law,” Assistant Secretary Henry Bensurto Jr. of the Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA)-West Philippine Sea Center said during the second Expanded Asean Maritime Forum (EAMF) in Kuala Lumpur Thursday.

“Claims are just mere claims that may not necessarily generate rights unless duly proven in an appropriate forum,” Bensurto said.

Maritime entitlements, as expressed in the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), include a country’s Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and which are “rights that lawfully demand respect from all State-Parties,” he added.

China claims a large swath of the entire South China Sea including part of the Philippines’ 200 nautical-mile EEZ.

The Philippines has filed for arbitration proceedings before the arbitral tribunal of the International Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague pursuant to the UNCLOS.

China has repeatedly refused to participate in the proceedings, insisting instead on bilateral talks to resolve the territorial dispute.

Fishing ships and maritime surveillance vessels of China continue to move in and out of the Philippines EEZ. Concrete blocks which could be used for the construction of structures were previously sighted off Bajo de Masinloc (Panatag or Scarborough Shoal).

Last year, Chinese fishing vessels were found illegally poaching endemic Philippine marine species in Bajo de Masinloc. A standoff ensued when authorities were prevented from apprehending the fishermen by Chinese ships which blocked them.

“To maintain order and stability in the South China Sea, we need predictability in the way we all behave with each other. To be predictable means, we need to have certain agreed standards, rules and norms,” Bensurto said.

“These standards, rules and norms in turn must be objective, impartial and non-discriminatory. International law is one objective standard,” he said.

The UNCLOS, recognized as the “Constitution of the oceans,” prescribes the rights, obligations, and maritime entitlements that must be respected by all state-parties to the convention.

Representatives from the DFA, Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources, Philippine Ports Authority, NAMRIA, Philippine Navy and the Philippine Coast Guard, joined the delegation to the Asean Maritime Forum (AMF).

Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Lao PDR, Malaysia, Myanmar, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam were participants in the forum.

The Expanded AMF is composed of all Asean member states, Australia, China, India, Japan, New Zealand, Republic of Korea, Russia and the United States.
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Zero wing
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ZAFT Sepcial Forces Operative for SEA
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Hong Nam
Oct 3 2013, 09:42 PM
Zero wing
Oct 3 2013, 08:33 PM
China will never stop so what's the point we should just file protest and build out own defense and tell those commies to shut up

Simple: For the legitimacy of your cause.


Let me throw back a question at you:
Should you stop complaining about corruption in your government just because corruption is so deeply rooted in your politicians' mindset?
No we should act upon it but that kind problem is different, One its domestic and this one is about chincom aggression.

I stand on my old post comrade build our defenses now and repair and rebuild our structures ignore the chincoms and tell them to respect our Nation rights which is due to us and if they site the ASEAN agreement then point out they themselves are breaking it and they should shut it.
"No sacrifice is too great in the service of freedom."

“As long as we are not willing to provide an adequate, suitable and capable defense for this country, we will be oppressed, demeaned and dishonored. We will be the stepping mat of every country in this region,”(Senate President Juan Ponce Enrile)

“Just because we are a very weak country militarily, we should not be taken advantage of by more powerful countries" (Senate committee on national defense and security chairman Panfilo Lacson)
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Parastriker
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Zero wing
Oct 4 2013, 11:26 PM
Hong Nam
Oct 3 2013, 09:42 PM

Quoting limited to 2 levels deepSimple: For the legitimacy of your cause.


Let me throw back a question at you:
Should you stop complaining about corruption in your government just because corruption is so deeply rooted in your politicians' mindset?
No we should act upon it but that kind problem is different, One its domestic and this one is about chincom aggression.

I stand on my old post comrade build our defenses now and repair and rebuild our structures ignore the chincoms and tell them to respect our Nation rights which is due to us and if they site the ASEAN agreement then point out they themselves are breaking it and they should shut it.
Different problems, same solution; tackle it on two sides.

I hate to reiterate what I have said about this, but here I go again.

If we provoke China and do as you say, do you think China would just sit back, relax and watch as we do what you say? Of course they would preempt an attack on our country. Do you think at that stage, a U.S. intervention would be viewed as moral?

But, if we build our country's claim's legitimacy, then a U.S. intervention would be considered moral enough as to be considered justified.

Face the truth, mister; whatever we do now, we could not expect to win against the PLA on our own, even in a 4-year timeframe.
Success through information, victory through disinformation.

"Good leaders make efficient followers. Great leaders make good followers. But true leaders make leaders out of mere followers."

"Measuring the intelligence of a common internet user is as easy as looking at his/her grammar."
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Hong Nam
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Bought by China

Zero wing
Oct 4 2013, 11:26 PM
No we should act upon it but that kind problem is different, One its domestic and this one is about chincom aggression.

I stand on my old post comrade build our defenses now and repair and rebuild our structures ignore the chincoms and tell them to respect our Nation rights which is due to us and if they site the ASEAN agreement then point out they themselves are breaking it and they should shut it.

It's really not that different. Filing a protest whether domestic or international is the same.

Okay, we may have a different opinion on this and I agree you should build your defenses and have some semblance of action. - as limited as it may be.

But imagine if this action is backed up by diplomacy. You will have a 2-pronged offense. That sure is better than one. So at the end of the day, it will strenghten your position. Legitimacy in the eyes of the world matters.



Quote:
 
tell them to respect our Nation rights which is due to us and if they site the ASEAN agreement then point out they themselves are breaking it and they should shut it.

That's a form of diplomacy right there. However, words like that will do you no good. As they will just tell you "to shut it" as well. While they have something to back up their rhetoric. Regretably, you don't. So build now, and use diplomacy to stave for time.

I often here the word "freebies" in this forum. Diplomacy is an exchange of words... and words are free. Surely a "less costly" offense would be welcomed and should be utilized. Maximize your assets in the field where your chances are at best equal - The diplomatic front - fight on a level playing field. That's the smart path here.


"Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" - an adage uttered by men of wisdom and often true. However, not absolute.

Diplomacy is the "arm" that holds your opponent close enough for you to use your "knife" in that gunfight. - Those are my words. I can't remember reading that somewhere.

Besides, much of the world's potential conflicts have been won and solved by diplomacy alone. - A good example of that would be the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis.


Edited by Hong Nam, Oct 5 2013, 12:39 AM.

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Constructions Mecaniques de Normandie - C Sword 90



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Red95
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Militarily we have limited options against China. It is for this reason that the government is taking a more diplomatic approach in dealing with China on this issue where our advantage lay. It also doesn’t mean that just because we give more emphasis on the diplomatic front, the government is no longer pursuing or scaling down our effort to improve the AFP's capability. The Pinoy government has done a lot for the modernization of the AFP compared to previous administrations combined.

A capable AFP shall contribute to the peaceful resolution of this dispute thru diplomatic initiative because in the first instance China choose us to bully primarily because of our weak armed forces. It is therefore imperative for the government to keep our focus in strengthening and modernizing our AFP that goes hand in hand with our diplomatic approach to resolve this dispute with China.

All IMHO thanks!
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Taz_1
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I wonder if those chinese ships are there during and immediately after the typhoons?
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gammy322
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AFP probers say US, not China, put concrete blocks in Bajo de Masinloc
By: Ellen Tordesillas, VERA Files
October 25, 2013 1:39 AM


The concrete blocks in Bajo de Masinloc, which Philippine defense and military officials last month accused China of putting there, may have actually been placed by the United States Navy decades ago, military sources said.

A military investigation found that the concrete slabs were covered by algae, an indication that they had been in the area for many years. The probe also found that the blocks had been used by the US Navy as “sinkers” to preserve the wreckage of old ships they used for target practice.

The information contradicts Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin’s statement at the congressional budget hearing in September in which he accused China of laying the foundation for structures similar to what it did in Mischief Reef in the Spratly Islands in 1995.



http://www.interaksyon.com/article/73413/afp-probers-say-us-not-china-put-concrete-blocks-in-bajo-de-masinloc
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Ayoshi
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Panatag Shoal won’t be another Mischief Reef, PH defense chief vows
globalnation.inquirer.net
Quote:
 
“I don’t think [it would be another Mischief Reef], because we have regular air and sea patrols,” Gazmin told reporters.
Gazmin said the blocks have algae, an indication that they were already old.

“Well now, we have seen that they are old. But how did it get there? In other words, these were newly discovered but it doesn’t mean they were newly put,” he said.
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zwahzhal
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gammy322
Oct 25 2013, 10:01 PM
AFP probers say US, not China, put concrete blocks in Bajo de Masinloc
By: Ellen Tordesillas, VERA Files
October 25, 2013 1:39 AM


The concrete blocks in Bajo de Masinloc, which Philippine defense and military officials last month accused China of putting there, may have actually been placed by the United States Navy decades ago, military sources said.

A military investigation found that the concrete slabs were covered by algae, an indication that they had been in the area for many years. The probe also found that the blocks had been used by the US Navy as “sinkers” to preserve the wreckage of old ships they used for target practice.

The information contradicts Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin’s statement at the congressional budget hearing in September in which he accused China of laying the foundation for structures similar to what it did in Mischief Reef in the Spratly Islands in 1995.



http://www.interaksyon.com/article/73413/afp-probers-say-us-not-china-put-concrete-blocks-in-bajo-de-masinloc
There is still a big possibility that concrete blocks are from Chinese. These could have been transferred only by them from another place. Just like the delaying tactic by Chinese, as they seem to be fabricating a documentation that will look like very old on their claims to our WPS. Further, concrete blocks can easily get molded because salt-water is splashing on the structure, under the heat of the sun. A 3-months exposure to salt & heat creates a seemless-look of a year-old mold-plants.
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