Space Wolves 2000 pt list

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Space Wolves 2000 pt list
Topic Started: Feb 22 2011, 04:09 PM (705 Views)
Memento Mori	Feb 22 2011, 04:09 PM Post #1
Administrator Posts: 1,476 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: June 12, 2009	OK, so, i'm horrifically terrified of my list building skills (or lack thereof), so I wanted to post one up and get some feedback from you guys. Please be gentle! 2000 point Space Wolf list: HQ: Wolf Lord - Tactical Dreadnought Armor, Saga of the Beastslayer, Wolftail Talisman, Belt of Russ. 180 pts ELITES: Wolf Guard Pack - Tactical Dreadnought Armor, Frost Axe, Wolf Claw, Frost Blade, Wolf Claw. 147 pts TROOPS: 10 Grey Hunters - melta gun, plasma gun, plasma pistol, power weapon, Rhino. 230 pts 10 Grey Hunters - melta gun, plasma gun, plasma pistol, power weapon, Rhino 230 pts 10 Blood Claws - melta gun, plasma pistol, power weapon, Rhino. 220 pts 10 Blood Claws - melta gun, plasma pistol, power weapon, Rhino. 220 pts FAST ATTACK: 5 Skyclaw Assault marines - melta gun, power weapon. 115 pts Swiftclaw Biker Pack (5) - melta gun, 5 x melta bombs, power weapon. 175 pts HEAVY SUPPORT: 6 Long Fangs (1 Squad leader + 5 troops) - Melta gun (SL), multi melta (2), Plasma Cannon, Las Cannon (2), Razorback with T/L Las cannon. 265 pts Predator - T/L Las cannon, heavy bolters. 130 pts Predator - Heavy bolters. 85 pts Total points cost - 1997 Looking back over this, it certainly seems to be more aimed at cracking open tanks, but i'm OK with that. Most of my opposition seems to have a lot of mech, with the exception of 'Nids. Obviously I can change accordingly, but this is my starter. >awaits barrage<



Frank	Feb 23 2011, 10:19 AM Post #2
Arbite Posts: 547 Group: Moderator Member #2 Joined: June 16, 2009	Help me out here, are the Wolf Guard in Dreadnoughts or Terminators?



Memento Mori	Feb 23 2011, 10:21 AM Post #3
Administrator Posts: 1,476 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: June 12, 2009	Frank Feb 23 2011, 10:19 AM Help me out here, are the Wolf Guard in Dreadnoughts or Terminators? Tactical Dreadnought Armor is Terminator armor



Frank	Feb 23 2011, 10:29 AM Post #4
Arbite Posts: 547 Group: Moderator Member #2 Joined: June 16, 2009	Oh you imperials with your crazy, um, words, and stuff. Well it looks pretty good to me. The only advice I would offer would be to ditch that Razorback you've got your Longdudes in, downgrade those two Lascannons to Missile Launchers, and then maybe lose some of those plasma pistols in your other squads. That should give you enough points for another squad of some kind. Edited by Frank, Feb 23 2011, 10:36 AM.



Memento Mori	Feb 23 2011, 11:00 AM Post #5
Administrator Posts: 1,476 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: June 12, 2009	Frank Feb 23 2011, 10:29 AM Oh you imperials with your crazy, um, words, and stuff. Well it looks pretty good to me. The only advice I would offer would be to ditch that Razorback you've got your Longdudes in, downgrade those two Lascannons to Missile Launchers, and then maybe lose some of those plasma pistols in your other squads. That should give you enough points for another squad of some kind. Well, the reason I had them in there, is because if they aren't in a vehicle, they're pretty squishy really. They'll have to stand their ground if they want to use the weapons, as they can't move and shoot. If they're out in the open, then they might not last long. I guess I could put them in a Rhino? The plasma pistols, I guess, are a 'fluffy' (god I hate that term) element to the army, as the SWs tend to have access to more of them, or something. What would be the reasoning for the switch from LC's to ML's? to clear up infantry? I haven't had too much luck with ML's in the past. I could give it a go though.



Frank	Feb 23 2011, 11:24 AM Post #6
Arbite Posts: 547 Group: Moderator Member #2 Joined: June 16, 2009	Well they're still in power armor, and you can still try to get cover saves as insurance. If you're dead set on giving them transport, then yeah I'd go with a rhino. The reasoning behind all the suggestions is just to free up points so you can get more dudes on the table. More dudes means more attacks and more opportunities to roll a save. As for the lascannons, I just think they're too expensive and probably not necessary considering the meltaspam. The missile launchers would still give you some ranged AT to complement the rest of that squad. The plasma pistols, lascannons and razorback would free up 160 points, you could easily throw down another Wolf Guard Pack or a Dreadnought with that.



Lauby	Feb 23 2011, 03:32 PM Post #7
Inquisitor Lord Posts: 507 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: June 17, 2009	I have to agree with Frank on the extraneous plasma pistols. Its very, very nice to have some plasma to shoot down monstrous creatures and punch down MEQs, but those pistols aren't cost effective. the long fang set up is, frankly, awful. I'm not trying to be mean, but there is a ton wrong with them. - The pack leader is the whole reason the unit is so scary - but if he fires his melta - the squad can't split their fire. Conversely, he's the guy you should be sticking wounds on first since he isn't carrying a heavy weapon. Ditch his metla. - hiding five heavy weapons in a vehicle makes no sense for this squad. If they're in a razorback, hen they can't fire (no fire points). If they're in a rhino, you can only fire two (two fire points) - The heavy weapon loadout makes no sense - its three long range weapons with two short range weapons. even with splitting your fire, you're going to be in situations where that combo sucks. This gets worse if the pack leader dies. - 265 points is far, far too much for this unit. Generally speaking, the common set up is straight missile launchers. It's cheap, effective and useful in a wide variety of situations. Lastly, there's a really, really important rule with all the bloodclaws, skyclaws and swiftcalws - unless they have a wolfgaurd or an IC buddy hanging out with the then they are subject to a rule (hot headed or something) that prevents them from firing if they are within 6 inches of an enemy unit (and they MUST charge in the assault phase). As a result of this and the lack of attached wolf guard, all those added special weapons are much reduced in usefulness. I'm also a bigger fan of a rune priest as a sole HQ. There's just so much utility in that model. also - How many terminators are in that wolfguard unit? If I were you, I'd be digging into a 3++ is the new black or YTTH for a list that was close to what I wanted and then start tweaking it for things I wanted. Edited by Lauby, Feb 23 2011, 03:33 PM.



Memento Mori	Feb 24 2011, 09:59 AM Post #8
Administrator Posts: 1,476 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: June 12, 2009	I guess what makes me sad is my lack of knowledge in the list building department. I'm not too sure what i'm missing. I try and take a logical approach to creating it, but I guess i'm overlooking something that is fundamental to list building. I could go and ape one of the lists over on those sites, but is it really teaching me how to build a list though? Bah! ima go sulk now.



Frank	Feb 24 2011, 10:39 AM Post #9
Arbite Posts: 547 Group: Moderator Member #2 Joined: June 16, 2009	I feel your pain man, sometimes I feel like I'm just grabbing at straws when I'm building a list. I think my reliance on plague marine spam in the last 10 or so games we've played has a lot to do with that. The mantra I stick to when buying wargear is 'Less is More'. Buy the minimum amount of stuff so you can have more bodies on the table. Beyond that, I just try to keep track of what has worked for me and my opponents, and what hasn't. I'm not that knowledgeable about Space Wolves, but it seems like they have a lot of special rules so maybe you want to get more familiar with those as you're building a list. That hot-headed rule (or whatever it's called) that Laubs mentioned seems like a big part of the puzzle.



Memento Mori	Feb 24 2011, 11:25 AM Post #10
Administrator Posts: 1,476 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: June 12, 2009	Hot headed is a rule that only takes effect if you don't have a Wolf Guard in the unit, it means that when the unit gets within 6 inches, it forgoes its shooting in readiness to make a charge. It could be quite nasty, as they have berzerk charge as well which gives me +2 attacks. Blood Claws, Swift Claws and Sky Claws all have these special rules. I believe all the other units available don't have these. I guess one of the other things that i'm questioning is the missile launcher loadout for Long Fangs. I get that they are functional, but are they really any more reliable than the other heavies? I've used them with my Templars and they were ok, but nothing to write home about. I think its going to be a case of just get stuck in and learn from what happens. IMO over analyzing not only makes it too complex, but kinda sucks the fun out of it too.



Lauby	Feb 24 2011, 05:29 PM Post #11
Inquisitor Lord Posts: 507 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: June 17, 2009	yeah - there's no substitute for experience. In my own situation, I find net lists extremely helpful for making sure I get a useful core of models that i wont regret owning while I try and pick up the naunces of the codex. The new books are almost overwhelming with the amount of options and good units you can take. I've always felt that getting into a new army is unnecessarily rough without some kind of help. I think the list you posted has a lot of potential and a lot of very good core units. I think the analysis is important though - this hobby is time consuming and expensive. getting stuck with a bunch of units you never use is the pits. This is all compounded if you don't play all that often. even if you give it a go with the above list, borrow some of Colin's DA models and proxy a few times to get a feel before you get out there and assemble some guys. Wish I had done that with my Dark angels.... All right - specific suggestions. All of these are made with the goal of keeping the central parts of your army intact. A lot of people out there see a list and then make so many changes its not even recognizable. I think that there's a certain point where optimization stops being worth it. - you've got literally hundreds of points tied up in extraneous wargear. You could squeeze in an entire unit of Gray Hunters in for that. - those terminators are scary - but far too fragile for the points (5++ invul, small squad prone to torrent of fire). Consider some storm sheilds? - all those blood claw units have metlas they'll never to get to make good use of. If you're within the range for the extra penetration dice, then you're in range to be forced to not use it. Ultimately, this neuters a huge chunk of your anti-tank. You can add IC's and wolf guard to the unit to nix that rule and the unit will still get the bezerk charge rule. This may be a good place to use some points by getting some wolfgaurd buddies - remember: every member of a wolfguard squads doesn't have to have the same equipment. A guy with a jump pack and a guy with a bike would be first to consider - If you're gonna go lascannons on a predator, go with sponsons. At BS4, two shots is waaaaaay better than one twin inked one. And 10 points cheaper. - the long fang setup - as mentioned previously. Note: The thing to keep in mind with the missile squads is not that they're any more reliable - its that they're cheaper. 5 long fangs with four launchers is something like 120 points. It's almost criminal how cheap it is for what it does. Edited by Lauby, Feb 24 2011, 05:30 PM.



Memento Mori	Feb 25 2011, 10:12 AM Post #12
Administrator Posts: 1,476 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: June 12, 2009	Thanks for the pointers there Lauby, I'll definitely keep those points in mind for future builds. I actually wrote up a new list last night which I wanted y'all to take a peep at. Bearing in mind that it's just the basics. I haven't included any special characters just yet, as I want to get a feel for the army before figuring out the synergy of the SCs. Here goes... HQ: Rune Priest - Runic Armor, Storm Bolter, Saga of the Warrior Born 158 pts Elites: Wolf Guard Pack (6) - Frost Axe, Plasma pistol, Wolf Claws (2), Jet pack (1), marine bike (1) 210 pts Dreadnought - twin-linked lascannon 135 Pts Wolf Scouts (5) - Missile Launcher 85 pts Troops: Grey Hunter pack (10) - Melta gun x 2, power weapon, Rhino 210 pts Grey Hunter pack (10) - Melta gun x 2, power weapon, Wolf Standard, Rhino 220 pts Grey Hunter pack (10) - Plasma gun x 2, power weapon, Rhino 205 pts Grey Hunter pack (10) - melta gun x 2, power weapon, Rhino 210 pts Grey Hunter pack (7) - Melta gun, power weapon, Rhino 125 pts Fast Attack: Skyclaw Assault pack (5) - Melta gun, power weapon 115 pts Swiftclaw Biker pack (6) - Melta gun, power weapon 175 pts Heavy Support: Longfangs squad (5 + 1 squad leader) - Missile launcher (4), Plasma cannon 150 pts This brings me to 1998 pts total. The Wolf Guard are no longer in Terminator armor for flexibility, which has allowed me to add a jet pack option as well as a bike, as a couple of these chaps will be separated off to the whelp units to keep them in line. Thoughts?



Frank	Feb 25 2011, 10:21 AM Post #13
Arbite Posts: 547 Group: Moderator Member #2 Joined: June 16, 2009	I like it, my only suggestion would be to switch a couple of the Grey Hunter squads back to Blood Claws so you can take advantage of Berserk Charge.



Memento Mori	Feb 25 2011, 10:43 AM Post #14
Administrator Posts: 1,476 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: June 12, 2009	Frank Feb 25 2011, 10:21 AM I like it, my only suggestion would be to switch a couple of the Grey Hunter squads back to Blood Claws so you can take advantage of Berserk Charge. Aye, I may well do that. My bikers and assault marines do come with that also, but are on the leash with the wolf guard



dethtron	Feb 25 2011, 12:23 PM Post #15
Pyrophant Judge Posts: 990 Group: Moderator Member #4 Joined: June 17, 2009	Not up on my spacewolves, but Here are a couple of suggestions.................. I think you could use more of the Missile long fang squads.....no, I'm serious. One of the reasons these are so popular is because they're cheap and give you a lot of options- great against infantry and light armor and monstrous creatures (MCs). When you have three units of them, you will pretty much kill or stall 3 tanks or MCs on most turns. Imagine that kind of firepower against lists that evan and I tend to run and I think you'll get a happy feeling in your pants. Seriously, in the right army I fear these as much or more than autocannons. To free up points for these maybe drop one of your troop choices (you've got a lot of units there and I'll show you how to spread that love out even more below) and perhaps one or both of your fast attack choices. Skyclaws- these are jumpers, right? To really do jumpers you kind of need to really go for jumpers- like having nothing but them and fast stuff in the list. If you have one unit of them they'll rush forwrad ahead of your army and get plastered. Or, they'll hang back with your army and never make use of the jump packs. Bikes are sort of the same way, but at least they're pretty hard to kill at T5. If you want a fast attack choice that goes well with the rest of your stuff- consider Typhoon landspeeders. You get more missiles, never a bad thing, have a unit that can move ahead of your army to get side shots on vehicles without having to worry about being extremely fragile, or has the range to hang back and shoot, waiting for a big late game move to contest objectives. Power weapons- conventional wisdom would say drop these, but since you play power armored troops pretty often I don't see a problem with these, but if you need to free up some points, don't worry about taking them out of your list. The joys of multiple small units (MSU)- so this is something that's been hinted at by others here, but I think needs some special attention. when possible try to take a lot of small units, rather than a few big ones. This gives you lots of flexibility during your turn and provides headaches for your enemy since nothing stands out as particularly scary enough to need to blast and they have a lot of targets to deal with. You've done a really good job of taking up damn near every slot in your FOC with this list so far. Some of your troop units seem maybe larger than they need to be, but other than that, well done. With so many units on the table I'd have a hard time piking out what I need to shoot at against you. My last bit of advice would be to consider all or half of your troop squads down to 5 men and putting them in a razorback. With a lascannon and tl Plasma razorback or even a tl lascannon one, you're going to add some potent long range firepower to your army. This will free up some of the points you might need to get more longfangs or get some typoons. any more leftover points could get you hunter-killer missiles. this gives you even more awesome ranged power. as long as you're not doing anything suicidal with these, 4 5 man units in a transport should be plenty of scoring units for you. How to make all these changes on the cheap and give yourself flexibility for the future- for starters, proxy the shit out of this stuff until you're comfortable to buy. You've got access to my marines and your own collection, so even if it's not wysiwig, I think we can rock just about anything you wanted to try. Magnets........ for marine vehicles, these are the shit. If you get a razorback kit, you can build it so that you can swap out the turret gun for a rhino hatch, so you have both transport options available to you. magnetizing hunter killer missiles is a friggin snap. I've got some magnets in a size that I can't really use, but would be fine for your vehicles, if you want them. is you need more, they're available pretty dirt cheap from k & j magnetics There's no substitute for experience when it comes to list writing. Don't worry if you don't feel like you're getting it. The people that are out there making great lists are the ones that play 10+ games a week. None of us can afford the time for that LIke john said, even if it feels like a cop-out, starting with a proven net list will give you a good base to modify to your tastes and playing that army will help you understand why certain choices were made, helping your future list efforts. This might ease the frustration if you feel like you're struggling to mae something you're happy with, plus you'll learn lots once you hit the table Kirby started a back to basics article series recently that is quite readable and very informative. This link goes to the series index page. check it out for some good theory reading. hope this helps, and I'll talk to you tomorrow. feel free to come over early or hang out after practice



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