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Grumpy Old Man Doesn't Know when to Stop; talkin' bout the good ol' days
Topic Started: Jan 14 2010, 04:36 AM (596 Views)
Epsilon Andromedae
Unregistered

On War

Yeah, i've been reading Clauswitz. I probably am a little bit big-headed because of it. But don't worry, this will be in line with the other Grumpy Old Man discussions.

In the book, "On War", Clauswitz describes war as a continuation of policy. In War, if you are not Constantly advancing, you are not doing anything. You don't go to war for no reason. Back then, before high technology, war was treated the way we treat nuclear technology here. Kind of.

Identify the Problem

Basically, as iv'e been reading this, i've been thinking "Wow....we got o war way too often"

War is not "Diplomacy by other means" its "Politics by other means". i know its hard to differentiate the two, but killing a diplomat does not mean "RAWR LETS GO TO WAR" it means you react proportionally.

SCENARIO TIME.

-----
Diplomacy as means for war:

Person 1: I've sent you my diplomat
Person 2: LAWLZ i sh00t y00 n00b
Person 1: RAWR LETS GO TO WAR!
-----

Here is why this is bad. 1: Going to war, what is your objective? To conquer? All because they killed a diplomat? Disproportionate response. To "invade" the definition of which is to enter, cause havoc, and leave: No, because thats the same poor response. Going to war because of killed diplomats is stupid.

The same scenario, with a proper response:

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Person 1: I've sent you my diplomat
Person 2: LAWLZ i sh00t y00 n00b
Person 1: I've kidnapped 200 of your citizens that are currently in my country. Give me a million dollars or they all die.
Person 2: Uh...
-----

RECALL: The Iran Hostage Crisis. If i recall correctly, we did NOT go to war because of that, we were working on ways to rescue them. They were released when Reagan became president.

Similarly, in this situation, you are using alternative means to accomplish a goal that is proportional to the initial act. And, if Person 2 were to continue this, they would run out of millions of dollars to give, or to spend on figuring out a rescue plan.

Heres another Scenario.

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Person 1: I don't like the stuff you're building. Cut it out.
Person 2: well *sticks out tongue* nyeh, try n stop me.
Person 1: WOAR!
-----

Neg. You all know why that is wrong. Disproportionate response.

Heres how it should go.

-----
Person 1: I don't like the stuff you're building. Cut it out.
Person 2: Well *sticks out tongue* nyeh, try n stop me.
Person 1: Cut it out or i WILL stop you.
Person 2: LALALALALALA I can't hear you!
Person 1: I've just cruise missiled a bunch of factories and powerplants, oh and by the way i cruise missiled a hospital too.
-----

THATS how it should be done. Plus or minus the hospital thing.

You don't go to war, you respond proportionately.

and note: that scenario could go a number of ways, if you do it properly. People will get angry and say "Rawr but my missile defense shot down your curise missiles/shot down the airplane that delivered them!" ((they can do that, right?))

well, no. thats BS. Missile defense doesn't work automatically, it works on preparedness. you can have a system that alerts you, and makes you more prepared. But heres how this would go down in real life.


Person 2: *ping* Huh, we got a bogey flying over.
Person 2: Base to Bogey, you are unauthorized for flight
Person 2: Hey, cut it out!
Person 2: psst, someone find out what this is and escort it to our base.

but while thats going on, Person 1's bogey would have already blown stuff up, and then the reaction would be to terminate the airplane. Thats assuming the two nations aren't already on a war footing.

The Moral of the Story
I am convinced that 90% of War-Related RP Fail comes from Godmode, which i addressed in my last rant, and Disproportionate Reaction to minor events, which i am addressing here.

Everyone understands the basic concepts: War is expensive, yes. War takes time, costs lives, is politically unpopular, yes.

But the huge misconception is the degree to which it is expensive and unpopular.

War that lasts longer than a couple months (with modern technology thats completely possible, give or take a few more months) is going to be severely draining.

Countries like Nuuk, lines, etc: They have the budget, manpower, etc, but they are at war so often that it becomes impossible to maintain. War should be a last resort to an action that persists in its Violation of Policy.

Take, for example, the Magilani GSPA (Global Space Protection Act).

The policy is clear cut. Don't send guns into space.
The options are clear. Send stuff up in secret, send it up with permission, or don't send it up at all.
The Consequences are immediate. Violation = pwn.

You'll also note that the Magilani are not always engaged in war. They are prepared, but not engaged. Thats how its done. You use military power to influence policy and politics, NOT to influence diplomacy and international affairs. You do not open talks with "if you do X then we'll invade" because invasion is stupid. Invasion is the worst kind of war, the dumbest kind of war, and by god if you invade you better invade fast, because prolonged invasion is severe in its consequences.

But EA, how can we solve this?!

My advice would be to get the RP ministry to set up a War Review board or a checklist or something so that when people go to war, they can make sure its alright, or if a war is causing alot of problems, the RP minister can intervene.

I'm not saying everything should be reviewed, just whenever theres a war that causes people to shout until their veins burst.

Final Note

My apologies to nations i have singled out in this post, i try to avoid it but i needed better examples. Nuuk, Lines, Magilan, i apologize. Please find it in your hearts to forgive me :P
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The Glorious Empire
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The Helghan Empire
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Well what i think caused the continuation of the war (in retrospect, ill admit at the time i agreed with Nuuk) was the Demands of the KU including an occupation afterward. That's why i think Kopo created these new leaders, because he feels as if he needs to defend himself from an Occupation, which is why I as originally against said Occupation, but now that Kopo keeps fighting, one is going to be necessary. The Best thing to do would've been to let the Rebel provinces defeat the Military on their own. Now where all stuck in a very long thread, since Kopo is taking a very long time to respond to anything

I also should[ve made that point much clearer when I was arguing with Nuuk earlier. The reason that the war is a bit much is because the people responsible have already been handed over to you.
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Darkle
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Keldarian Monarchy
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If you were to look at the time line of the war in actual events RP-wise, it hasn't been very long at all. However, because Kopo is so inactive lately, the thread is taking longer than necessary to conclude, IRL.

But yeah.. The whole thing has devolved into a giant mess.
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Nuuk
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Deleted
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Indeed, the war should have been over when the leaders had been captured, but Koponia forced it to go on. And looking at the timeline, Koponia had time to end the war before my demands. He did not, which end in an unconditionally surrender demand.

Remember first that my ideas for occupations are just a proposal, that is to say they are not definite. And I have changed, in my mind, the borders of said occupation zones to be quite smaller. It depends on the verdict the Allied Forces give.
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Lounited
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Great Union of Big, Independent Nations Amalgamated
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Nationstates has become so much about war, when people join Nationstates they just want war, war, war, war, military, military, military, military such that peaceful RPing becomes nothing.

Nationstates has lost its essence.
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Nuuk
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When I joined NS my interest was the economic impact of my decisions, not the military. My viewpoint is the same today.
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Erid'Lor
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The Imperium
I joined because I wanted to create a computer game and kept getting NS on google when I searched for "game create computer" or sth. like that. I didn't know about RP until a year later. XD
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Great Sun Kyoma
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Gee!
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No, no. War is fun, diplomacy is fun and business politics are even better...
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