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Grumpy Old Man Doesn't Know when to Stop; talkin' bout the good ol' days
Topic Started: Jan 14 2010, 04:36 AM (598 Views)
Epsilon Andromedae
Unregistered

On War

Yeah, i've been reading Clauswitz. I probably am a little bit big-headed because of it. But don't worry, this will be in line with the other Grumpy Old Man discussions.

In the book, "On War", Clauswitz describes war as a continuation of policy. In War, if you are not Constantly advancing, you are not doing anything. You don't go to war for no reason. Back then, before high technology, war was treated the way we treat nuclear technology here. Kind of.

Identify the Problem

Basically, as iv'e been reading this, i've been thinking "Wow....we got o war way too often"

War is not "Diplomacy by other means" its "Politics by other means". i know its hard to differentiate the two, but killing a diplomat does not mean "RAWR LETS GO TO WAR" it means you react proportionally.

SCENARIO TIME.

-----
Diplomacy as means for war:

Person 1: I've sent you my diplomat
Person 2: LAWLZ i sh00t y00 n00b
Person 1: RAWR LETS GO TO WAR!
-----

Here is why this is bad. 1: Going to war, what is your objective? To conquer? All because they killed a diplomat? Disproportionate response. To "invade" the definition of which is to enter, cause havoc, and leave: No, because thats the same poor response. Going to war because of killed diplomats is stupid.

The same scenario, with a proper response:

-----
Person 1: I've sent you my diplomat
Person 2: LAWLZ i sh00t y00 n00b
Person 1: I've kidnapped 200 of your citizens that are currently in my country. Give me a million dollars or they all die.
Person 2: Uh...
-----

RECALL: The Iran Hostage Crisis. If i recall correctly, we did NOT go to war because of that, we were working on ways to rescue them. They were released when Reagan became president.

Similarly, in this situation, you are using alternative means to accomplish a goal that is proportional to the initial act. And, if Person 2 were to continue this, they would run out of millions of dollars to give, or to spend on figuring out a rescue plan.

Heres another Scenario.

-----
Person 1: I don't like the stuff you're building. Cut it out.
Person 2: well *sticks out tongue* nyeh, try n stop me.
Person 1: WOAR!
-----

Neg. You all know why that is wrong. Disproportionate response.

Heres how it should go.

-----
Person 1: I don't like the stuff you're building. Cut it out.
Person 2: Well *sticks out tongue* nyeh, try n stop me.
Person 1: Cut it out or i WILL stop you.
Person 2: LALALALALALA I can't hear you!
Person 1: I've just cruise missiled a bunch of factories and powerplants, oh and by the way i cruise missiled a hospital too.
-----

THATS how it should be done. Plus or minus the hospital thing.

You don't go to war, you respond proportionately.

and note: that scenario could go a number of ways, if you do it properly. People will get angry and say "Rawr but my missile defense shot down your curise missiles/shot down the airplane that delivered them!" ((they can do that, right?))

well, no. thats BS. Missile defense doesn't work automatically, it works on preparedness. you can have a system that alerts you, and makes you more prepared. But heres how this would go down in real life.


Person 2: *ping* Huh, we got a bogey flying over.
Person 2: Base to Bogey, you are unauthorized for flight
Person 2: Hey, cut it out!
Person 2: psst, someone find out what this is and escort it to our base.

but while thats going on, Person 1's bogey would have already blown stuff up, and then the reaction would be to terminate the airplane. Thats assuming the two nations aren't already on a war footing.

The Moral of the Story
I am convinced that 90% of War-Related RP Fail comes from Godmode, which i addressed in my last rant, and Disproportionate Reaction to minor events, which i am addressing here.

Everyone understands the basic concepts: War is expensive, yes. War takes time, costs lives, is politically unpopular, yes.

But the huge misconception is the degree to which it is expensive and unpopular.

War that lasts longer than a couple months (with modern technology thats completely possible, give or take a few more months) is going to be severely draining.

Countries like Nuuk, lines, etc: They have the budget, manpower, etc, but they are at war so often that it becomes impossible to maintain. War should be a last resort to an action that persists in its Violation of Policy.

Take, for example, the Magilani GSPA (Global Space Protection Act).

The policy is clear cut. Don't send guns into space.
The options are clear. Send stuff up in secret, send it up with permission, or don't send it up at all.
The Consequences are immediate. Violation = pwn.

You'll also note that the Magilani are not always engaged in war. They are prepared, but not engaged. Thats how its done. You use military power to influence policy and politics, NOT to influence diplomacy and international affairs. You do not open talks with "if you do X then we'll invade" because invasion is stupid. Invasion is the worst kind of war, the dumbest kind of war, and by god if you invade you better invade fast, because prolonged invasion is severe in its consequences.

But EA, how can we solve this?!

My advice would be to get the RP ministry to set up a War Review board or a checklist or something so that when people go to war, they can make sure its alright, or if a war is causing alot of problems, the RP minister can intervene.

I'm not saying everything should be reviewed, just whenever theres a war that causes people to shout until their veins burst.

Final Note

My apologies to nations i have singled out in this post, i try to avoid it but i needed better examples. Nuuk, Lines, Magilan, i apologize. Please find it in your hearts to forgive me :P
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Lines
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Senior nation
Me? I wanna fix my mistakes too!!

Besides my constant warfare, where else have I godmodded?
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Epsilon Andromedae
Unregistered

constant warfare is the big thing, atm :P
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Lines
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Senior nation
Besides that?

And it's a bunch of wars yes, but besides on my own turf, deployment hasn't topped 1.4 million. And that 1.4 were the soldiers from the Cartic into kopo for ~2 weeks.

I don't really think my wars have lasted for more than a couple months at most.

Kalzan Islands? - I'm sorta counting it as a week or two at most. total deployed being like 400-500k
Kura - A month or two? If even a month. I don't remember having to deploy much more than some tanks and a few hundred thousand...
Rivorsio/Junzia - a month or two, if even. Some(6-10) millions.
Kopo - 1.4 million. 2 weeks

calculate cost for me? :P
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Epsilon Andromedae
Unregistered

well, if you read my grumpy rants, im sure you'll be able to determine for yourself whats godmodery and whats not. i'm not really one to judge, because i haven't been following RP in a long time.
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Lines
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Senior nation
My judgment skills fail, trust me. I need to be told what's acceptable and what's not, otherwise, I'll go insane thinking over it... :unsure:
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Ubiquisque
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Large State
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Demonland
Jan 13 2010, 05:10 PM
Most of the reason you don't see me more active around here is because I've decided to avoid war RP's, more or less for that reason: there's so goddamn many of them, and I just don't buy the reasons for most of them. I restarted my nation to explore other possibilities of RP. So far the best I've come up with is converting to hydrogen-powered vehicles, but I suppose I have to start somewhere. :P

I guess I'm just more interested in using RP to explore the philosophical and ethical sides of conflicts, rather than the "Wow I get to blow stuff up now!" side. Because really, the graphics of a text-based RPG are pretty wanting for that sort of thing. :lol: So if anyone comes up with better ideas in that vein, feel free to give me a shout. I'll keep thinking in the meantime.

I could not agree more and I have had a similar experience. Purely military RP does not hold a lot of interest for me. I deliberately started a new small nation here with only a nominal military to explore other ways to RP nations. I have done little RP here because it has been so militaristic lately.

[Please do not misunderstand me - this is not to criticise the warfare guys. That is a valid, viable and fun way to play; even if I personally do not like it and think it might be getting overused.]

It is good to see a few like minded players brought out into the light by this thread. Maybe Demonland, if interested, and other like minded states might like to get together with me and we could tease out some new paths along which we could RP?
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Magilan
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Ultra Power
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War is the continuation of policy, as such, for a complete picture of a nation, one cannot ignore its armed forces and the policy that dictates its employment and behavior.

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Darkle
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Keldarian Monarchy
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Mag, I think that people understand that. The thing that is bothering them is that war has seemingly grown to become the only way to resolve a conflict in Oracia. Which is not as things should be. It's simply cost inefficient and completely irrational.
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Demonland
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Large State
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Ubiquisque
Jan 13 2010, 07:16 PM
I could not agree more and I have had a similar experience. Purely military RP does not hold a lot of interest for me. I deliberately started a new small nation here with only a nominal military to explore other ways to RP nations. I have done little RP here because it has been so militaristic lately.

[Please do not misunderstand me - this is not to criticise the warfare guys. That is a valid, viable and fun way to play; even if I personally do not like it and think it might be getting overused.]

It is good to see a few like minded players brought out into the light by this thread. Maybe Demonland, if interested, and other like minded states might like to get together with me and we could tease out some new paths along which we could RP?

EA's already PMed me with some interesting stuff, which I or he can forward to you if you'd like. My thing is, I don't want to throw out a bunch of ultimately empty diplomatic dickering for its own sake. I'm just interested in saving declaration of war for the last resort when it comes to conflict, which is why I replaced my Alexander the Great persona with a gentle philosopher king. But I don't want us to become like the United Nations in response. :P

And this is why I'm pretty sure I'm not cut out for academia. :lol:

But yeah, getting together would be good. Have any preferred method of doing so?
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Ubiquisque
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Large State
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Magilan
Jan 14 2010, 05:09 PM
War is the continuation of policy, as such, for a complete picture of a nation, one cannot ignore its armed forces and the policy that dictates its employment and behavior.

But von Clausewitz was not arguing that war and military action are an inevitable part of politics but merely that merely that when they occur, they are best understood in political terms.

I have no trouble conceding that there is a perfectly justifiable place for armed conflict in international relations but I also believe that there is a place for nations (and RP!) that eschew relying preponderantly on war as the means of attaining their political goals. I think that is part of what EA is trying to say and, if not, it is certainly something I would say!
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Magilan
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Ultra Power
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Indeed. However, to use Magilan as an example, the reason for the war, is the murder and consequent burning of that diplomats body.
The war has a simple goal, to grab those responsible, and give a fist in the face of the nation who allowed such an act to take place. Its a continuation of a policy that I like to refer as, "Dont fuck with us".

Sure a cruise missile strike and whatnot would probably have been cheaper, but you cant have cruise missiles stage public executions of those responsible. Nor can they squash the control the government have over its land. However, an army can.
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The Isles of Orland
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Super Power
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Hey Deamonland, Ubiquisque, and Epsilon, I meant to post earlier but I'm interested in participating in role-plays that deal with stuff other than the amassing of international power and the killing of imaginary people - its why I moved to Caprecia Minor (besides liking the shape of Ubiquisque (the nation not the person), it'll be a great colony one day). So if you could fit me in it would be cool - maybe pm me the ideas, and I also have some of my own.

(God, that sounded desperate :P)
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Ubiquisque
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And exactly what is wrong with my shape? (Of the Person, not the nation!)
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The Glorious Empire
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The Helghan Empire
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Magilan
Jan 15 2010, 03:10 AM
Indeed. However, to use Magilan as an example, the reason for the war, is the murder and consequent burning of that diplomats body.
The war has a simple goal, to grab those responsible, and give a fist in the face of the nation who allowed such an act to take place. Its a continuation of a policy that I like to refer as, "Dont fuck with us".

Sure a cruise missile strike and whatnot would probably have been cheaper, but you cant have cruise missiles stage public executions of those responsible. Nor can they squash the control the government have over its land. However, an army can.

Yes, and we all agree that that war is justifiable, however the major difference between your War, and the War in Koponia, is that those who are responsible where already captured. The General in charge of the massacre and his top Lieutenants where captured and handed over to the KU, and the war was continued regardless, when there is no reason too continue it.
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Darkle
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Keldarian Monarchy
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To be fair, TGE, the war's continuation was Kopo's doing. I'm thinking Kopo was disappointed that the international community uber-GLOMPED his rebels' asses and then godmodded the sudden appearance of new leaders in a secret bunker. Which Nuuk then blew up.
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