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Grand Syntaran Heights; ATTN: World
Topic Started: Jul 2 2013, 10:14 PM (1,911 Views)
Lines
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Senior nation
The Commonwealth and Sainamese were where Arcturus expected them last: hiding to his right. The two were rather silent, Councilor Matthew Harder watching the speaker onto the stage with curiosity. The Sainamese man studied just as intent, though both took the short break as an opportunity to greet the So'Karsan.

After a few moments of silence, however, Gabriel continued, "Many of your governments were given copies a few weeks prior to today. Many of them made recommendations, some of which we have taken into account in preparing this version of the treaty.

"As you can see from the text, or read in whatever presentations your governments gave you prior to your departure, this treaty serves a few main purposes: to establish a central authority for the coordination of operations in outer space, to ban nuclear and kinetic weaponry from entering orbit, and to clarify positions and a code of conduct concerning outer space.

"Now, before we move on, I'd like to take a few moments to allow for a form of interactivity... Is there anyone who would like to take a few moments to clarify their government's positions or make some final inquiries?"

Treaty Text
Edited by Lines, Jul 5 2013, 03:22 PM.
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Lomarre
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High-Kingdom of Lomarre
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"Er...so basically, we have to submit to the supreme overlord known as I.S.A.?" Marco stood up and waved his hand, "I don't think that we can give one organization that much power. We'll need to set up better fail-safes if Lomarre is to sign it."
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Lines
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"You misunderstand," Hegemon Cortes replied, "the ISA is simply tasked with recording orbital objects, maintaining a pristine and open outer space, and... keeping watch to ensure that the signatories respect the treaty--two of three tasks the Noberian Federation previously handled."

((OOC: I've edited the treaty, guys. Took out the bits giving the ISA a bit too much authority. Apologies for that; almost forget my mission here is to demilitarize space, and that this is supposed to be the peaceful attempt. I'm not supposed to get forceful unless it fails. :P ))
Edited by Lines, Jul 5 2013, 03:29 PM.
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DeSchaine
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Large State
[ *  *  *  * ]
Conolly nodded. "As much as I am loathe to agree with my counterpart from Lomarre, Taeunas rejects this document. Too much power resides in one location with one governing body. By itself, article twelve completely violates any idea of national security and soverignty." She tapped a knuckle on the treaty. "No. As is, Taeunas will not be signing this."
Edited by DeSchaine, Jul 5 2013, 03:38 PM.
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Lines
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"As my colleague has stated," John commented, rising to his feet, "the ISA is simply not as powerful as you believe. It's tasked with maintaining a public record of orbital bodies--a task, I assure you, many states are undoubtedly already undertaking--keeping space free of dangerous and obstructive objects--a mission my country has, independently and at it's own expense, meet for the last three decades to ensure that access to space is actually viable, rather than a suicide mission--and sending observers to ensure that the treaty is respected.

"Regardless, perhaps you might explain your objections and suggest improvements, rather than obtrude by becoming a blind nay-sayer?"

((OOC: Btw, here's the RL treaty I was looking at when I drafted this one. As we have no UN here, most of it's roles were taken over by the ISA. ;) ))
Edited by Lines, Jul 5 2013, 03:58 PM.
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DeSchaine
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Large State
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"Oh, I see... you'd like an itemized list of whats wrong with this. That can be arranged." She smirked as she paged through the document again. "Article one, section b... 'overseeing all international and national, etc'... what exactly does that mean? It seems to entail that any agency independent of the ISA needs to come before them and seek permission for any experiment or launch." She took a pen and scratched a line through those words.

"Article two, section a... 'shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries, regardless of the degree of their economic or scientific development, and shall be the province of all mankind'... blather." Another line.

"Taeunas, for one, would not be interested in turning over any kind of proprietary scientific results, or allow nations who are not willing to work with us in sharing of any material profits from any sort of production. And article three follows that, in that asteroids constitute 'celestial bodies' and should the time come that we are able to mine them, any one set to by Taeunas or any company residing within our borders for such purposes has complete and total right to claim it in its entirety. The moons would be different stories, of course, being much larger." A line through article three.

"Article five is patently absurd as any soverign nation will not have its national security needs dictated so." She held up a hand. "We do agree with the ban on weapons of mass destruction. Nasty things, those. Murdering large populations should always be banned and avoided. But the use of conventional weapons should be allowed. These are, by nature, less destructive and in this day and age, precisely guided. We see no issue with them. And along those lines, article six should be amended to read 'except when nations are in a state of war with one another.'" Two more scribbles on the pages

"Article eleven is basicly a restatement of two and three. Redundant as they were a complete hames to begin with... article twelve likewise, as we will NOT be open to sharing any secrets... that seems to be it. The rest seems to be standard boilerplate." She placed her pen on the desk and tilted her head slightly as she looked back toward the speaker. "Is that more what you were looking for?"


OOC: There are a lot of multinational treaties that I've read and totally disagreed with on the basis of the language used. Very one world government at times.
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Lines
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"Legitimate complaints at points," John returned, sharing her smirk. Quite frankly, his war considerably larger. The man had a large face, though his details were proportionate. His blue eyes were cold, save for the electric thrill that was seemed present as he leaned his head to meet the Taeunasan's. "However, if you'll look in a dictionary, you'll discover that that the term 'oversee' does not mean to administer, direct, regulate, or any other form of explicit control. No, the term 'oversee' means to inspect, to watch, or otherwise monitor.

"This is rather necessary, to ensure that we're not stumbling blindly into outer space, with no neutral party to assist in awareness and coordination. I'm sure you can see the problem with having no remote idea what sort of operations or missions, or even flight path, your neighbor is planning. Such chaos could led to accidents--accidents that could have easily been avoided with a little communication.

"Regardless, perhaps rather than simply scratching a line through a paper and calling it day, you might suggest alternatives?"

The man let out a short sigh, grabbing his copy of the treaty and walking around the table to join Gabriel in the center of the stage. "I'm afraid I must disagree with you on your second and third points, however. It's rather pretentious to believe that A) the concept that the destitute and the poor have a right to the pursuit of knowledge and betterment is nonsense and B) that your people have sole rights to resources they did not create and have exactly zero jurisdiction or legitimacy to claim. Quite frankly, I find it exceeding humorous that, should claiming asteroids be a possibility, your state would manage to achieve dominion over any noteworthy and meaningful chuck. Let me assure you, should entry into outer space become a race, there are a multitude of better prepared and more powerful states poised to cut it up.

"Regardless, it seems you've misunderstood. Nowhere in the treaty are you forced to share anything--aside from Article Six Section C, to alleviate health risks and therefore not particularly taxing. You are, however, encouraged to cooperate with your willing peers. I believe that was a little requisite of yours, a willing to work together. Article Eleven Section A grants you an opportunity to refuse--you are simply considering, after all--while Section B grants you the loophole of 'greatest extent feasible and practical'. Article Twelve Section A notes that access is on a 'basis of reciprocity', which means you are entitled to refuse if you do agree with their offer."

John shook his head, frowning somewhat. His sly smirk returned however, as his colleague sent him a queer look. "Article Five," the President continued, glancing back at his paper, "prohibits the deployment of weapons of mass destruction, kinetic strike satellites, and other weaponry capable of striking at the surface. Your country is on the planet, Madam, I find you would be quite safer if weapons capable of striking at it from the heavens were entirely banned. Similarly, outer space is not your national property and, therefore, I don't agree that you'd need to put offense-capable weaponry within it for the sake of... national security. The treaty says nothing about lasers, missiles incapable of surviving atmospheric entry, and the most conventional of all weapons: an auto-cannon. You might be right on the inclusion of conditions for war, however. But I must point out that that same Article identifies astronauts as envoys of mankind. Surely that entitles them to a few extra protections? To not be arrested and treated as captured combatants? However, perhaps a clause allowing their detention should they be armed is in order.

"On the note of Article Eleven, it clarifies sections of Article Two, including potential cooperation and the role of the I.S.A., though I don't believe it touches on Article Three. And, again, Article Twelve does give you an out: obviously, we don't expect you to cooperation with nations you consider unfriendly... though, I don't believe you made that argument. You pointed out... secrets, I believe? Although I'm a bit curious as to what secrets your state would seek to hide in a peaceful and research-centric environment, I believe the inquiry might well answer itself."

John relaxed, the treaty sliding to his side with his arm as his body took on a more casual demeanor. The Hegemon at his side made no gestures, aside from a flick of the eyes from his partner to the woman, then to survey the crowd. The President continued regardless, his voice less passionate. "I do thank you for stepping up to the plate, however. Your worries have allowed us to clarify points of the treaty, and I do hope I have addressed your discomfort adequately.

"Any further questions?"

((OOC: I'll edit typos tomorrow morning. It's too late now. >_> ))
Edited by Lines, Jul 5 2013, 10:44 PM.
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Valus
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The Multicultured Guy
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Delegate Ironos stood up. "Most Honorable Speakers, I agree with all but one point, what of non-humans or sentient beings that do not consider themselves human? To signify that only mankind may take the stage of space is unfair, what of the Merish and Anthromorphs of the Pacium Regions? Elsewise the Sylvarian Empire sees fit to sign this treaty."

Viscount Lykos stood up after Ironos, "The Coalition's plans are not interfered by this treaty, we will sign it."
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Kingborough
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The Monarchist
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Lady Elena threw her hands up in the air and sighed dramatically before she responded to the present treaty.

"I am saddened to inform you The City of Kingborough will not accept this treaty in its present form, and speaking explicitly for the Council of Families I assure the esteemed Hegemon and the esteemed President that while we mean no insult, Kingborough cannot abide such ridiculous terms."

"To ban all commerce and proprietary ownership of celestial bodies, a term which realistically can be read as expanding to encompass the entire known universe including other planets, is out of the question. Presently orbiting through this solar system is more raw material than has been mined by all civilizations on this planet in history. Such resources could be of endless benefit to the Human and Other races, and we do not see how you intend to let such resources be mined if no one can own them."

"As for your statement that one does not have the right to claim resources they did not create, please do tell me what you call this planet? I hope you are not so delusional as to claim you created Oracia or the land your nation occupies or the resources you mined to build the very building we stand in."

"This is just one point we cannot abide by. This ban on weaponry in space is foolish and short sighted. Article V, Clause B, would ban any system to prevent asteroid impacts with the planet - a potentially deadly mistake - and certainly leave us defenseless in case of an encounter with other space faring races. Article II, Clause A, also would seemingly require us to disclose scientific knowledge attained in space with other occupants of the globe. As an example that comes to mind, what happens if we discover a new, deadly bioweapon and are forced to disclose this to our sworn enemies who then use it to murder our people? Or perhaps we develop a new breakthrough in a weapons system applicable on the terrestrial surface and we are required to give this breakthrough to a nation presently invading us, resulting in them winning the war and conquering us?"

"Article I, clause has to raise the question of how you intend to enforce this. How I read this clause is that even if a nation has not signed this treaty, you'll violate their national sovereignty to barge into their operations without permission and what, if they don't let you you'll invade them?"

"It is also important to note the point raised by the Sylvarian delegate, that not all occupants of this planet are human, and 'mankind' is not the only party. Our planet is occupied by at least a dozen other species, which it is foolish to ignore the fact of."

"In summary, our state cannot agree to sign this treaty without significant alterations and will we be encouraging our allies to refuse to do so as well."
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Falsea
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Comrade-Chairwoman of the World Revolution
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As if being on the same room with all these different foreigners isn't uncomfortable to the Premier already, the Kingboroughnian External Secretary's rant was enough for him to cock his left brow and "harrumph" somewhat louder than he ought to do. Feeling he obtained the attention of Lozac'h, he moved his dark blue eyes to meet hers as he spoke at the same time.

"I'am utterly appalled that you would view the objects of the empyrean plane as mere areas of conquest. Oracia alone has been tainted by the polarization caused by man's nature, his ambition to contest superiority with others, his greed and evil. And now you seek to maintain the status quo of allowing the nations of Oracia to not only expand their imperialist agenda and capitalist filth into space, but also develop it as a new theater for warfare?"

"Never have I witnessed such greed in my life, such a desire that would endanger the already volatile safety of our one and only home for these raw materials.", he finally finished. Stephens released a long sigh, and prepared for another burst of anger towards the delegate of what is supposed to be an ally of the People's Republic, but was silenced by Hopkins. The Minister of External Affairs took over as she pragmatically addressed the issue at hand.

"The concerns of the Lady Lozac'h regarding asteroid crashes is a valid one, and I believe a change allowing sovereign nations, in conjunction with the ISA, to develop purely defensive weapons is something advisable. Of course, there are always land-based systems we can use yet we've yet to develop."

"Regarding the disclosure of sensitive information, I also believe balance is key. I would suggest that all scientific knowledge discovered by sovereign nations should be shared only with the ISA for cataloging and distribution. That way, knowledge that could potentially impact the world in a negative way can be kept secret while useful information can be shared. On the issue of non-human sentient species, they should be afforded the same rights afforded to humans in this treaty, considering they are, more or less, human-like in conduct, behavior, civilization, and the like."

"All in all, it is the opinion of the central people's government that this treaty would be of use in fostering international peace and cooperation and would gladly sign its provisions."
Edited by Falsea, Jul 6 2013, 01:41 AM.
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DeSchaine
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"Inspect, watch, monitor... all of these carry overtones of being able to veto things the ISA doesnt like." She stated with crossed arms. "Any nation capable of space travel should be able to, on its own, track and monitor the flightpaths of any sat sized object up there, as well as make their own capable of adjusting its own path to avoid any issues.

"And the beliefs that your so called 'destitute and poor' have the right to gain knowledge and betterment from the sweat of our workers and thinkers IS nonsense. We owe them nothing." She gave a very unlady like snort. "As Lady Elena pointed out, no one on this planet 'created' the resources that we all use. Are you seriously sitting there and saying that the meteals Taeunas mines or the timber we cut or the food we grow belong to the entire world? That, sir, is manifestly untrue and as mentaller an idea as I have ever heard. If a nation puts up equipment and workers to mine or otherwise make use of resources beyond our planet, those resources belong to that nation, NOT the world as a whole. The blood sweat and tears that our people would put forth into such a venture is all the jurisdiction and legitimacy we will need."

She totally ignore his remarks about Taeunas' ability compared to the rest of the world. Let them think what they will. she thought. More the fools they, then. "So I must therefore ask, in light of the wording in article two, which takes precedence? Is the ISA going to force members to turn over their discoveries and results, as is suggested by section C? Or do they actually get the choice under article eleven? It does not clarify, it contradicts.

"Article five... I ask, who are you or the ISA to dictate to us what measures we take to ensure our own security? Space may not be our national property, but neither are the seas, and yet there are heavily armed fleets that sail across it, floating bases that bristle with weapons. Space is no different.

"And again... with the language used, I see no out offered in article twelve. It also makes no mention of how these..." she paused and raised an eyebrow. "...inspectors... are to be chosen. How is a member to be assured that an individual from a hostile nation wont be assigned?" She shook her head and looked at the assembled group. "Ladies and gentlemen... we should have had a doctor look at this as soon as it arrived here. It was obviously D.O.A. What I propse for solution to this bags of a treaty is that we go over it, article by article, and rework it ourselves, to fit what we can all agree on."
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Kingborough
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The Monarchist
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Lady Elena snorted at the Falsean Premier. "Please don't pretend that if it would give you the edge over the DU or IA or let you spread communism further across the world that you wouldn't exploit space yourself."

"Man may be fundamentally evil, but that is all we have left to us. We'd be in a rather terrible world without greed and ambition, no one would bother to do anything worthwhile and we'd still be sitting in the stone age just surviving."
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Valus
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The Multicultured Guy
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"You're wrong." Ironos stated. "It is fundamental to human nature that we share, it is this pure capitalism that emits greed. And to Tauena's Ambassador, should the poor have no right to betterment the world would turn to chaos, knowledge lost leads to destruction, and those knowledgeable can lead. We have borders in the seas and claim what is international waters, space acts no different. Anything beyond this atmosphere is a no-man's land, you cannot claim it, and I stand by the Falsean Premier that weapons should not be allowed in space. If a nation were to build a Finger of God it would be able to threaten whomever they wish, effectively becoming a terrorist state. If you wish to build a defense grid in space that we might monitor floating bodies to take precautions that is all we can do, firing a nuke at an asteroid wont make it turn away but rather shower the world in fire, what comes down is inevitable and we can only watch it."
Edited by Valus, Jul 6 2013, 02:40 AM.
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Falsea
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The Premier whispered something under his breath as he held his finger at Hopkins and turned to face the Kingboroughnian and Taeunas delegates once more, slightly towards the former more as he retorted.

"Your ill-obtained propaganda aimed at the discrediting of the People's Republic is fallacious and frankly insulting. We have no need nor desire to turn space into a business venture like others desire to do so, and while our foreign policy supports proletarian internationalism, in no way are we desperate that we would take the vast expanse of space and mold it in our own hands for our personal benefit."

"I am also appalled that you think evil is the twin of ambition. Maybe it is applicable for your own state, but generally, this is a lie. The Sylvarian delegate has a point, man may be ambitious, but it is his choice if he's going to use this ambition either for the good of himself or the good of all. Evil is not the only thing left in us, and to say that greed makes the world go round is just fallacious. Greed maybe accelerates the world faster due to the fueling the competitiveness of economies, but it also hastens the time that man will reach his ultimate demise. Cooperation is key, not greed, madame secretary.", said Stephens, his pair of eyes piercing straight at Lozac'h.

"The People's Republic stands firm in its commitments to international peace. Any and all weapons in space, not only weapons of mass destruction, but also those capable of striking terrestrial targets from extraterrestrial positions should be banned. Why would you even need satellites to protect your national defense anyway? if you have the money to build a satellite, then surely you have the money to fund a strong enough military? the ISA should be charged with the protection of Oracia from all extraterrestrial threats in my opinion, including asteroid strikes and other such disasters. It should be the only one to have access to space weaponry, for the defense of the planet."

"Finally, I wish to remind you all that giving away astronomical information is not mandatory. It is simply a way to encourage international cooperation regarding space matters, and not a way for other countries to compromise their safety by giving away their secrets. Cooperation, I reiterate. If you can't be arsed to bother with the international community in ways beyond hostility, then you can go fuck yourselves, take your abnormal paranoia, then live in complete isolationism away from everyone in the safety of your shells."
Edited by Falsea, Jul 6 2013, 03:21 AM.
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Lines
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"Delegates, delegates," Hegemon Gabriel intervened. "Please, calm yourselves. This isn't the place for political bickering. We are here for the pursuit of this treaty, and it seems we've finally began moving. Chairman Meow?"

The old man nodded, propping open a laptop in front of him. As it loaded, the wall behind them slid apart, revealing a massive monitor. The room lights dimmed, as the monitor spurred to life. Within a minute, the screen was dominated by the treaty text opened in a common text editor.

"In the spirit of international cooperation," Gabriel continued, "we shall borrow a page from the Nysan Organzation and changes references to mankind to references to sapient life." As he spoke, the Chairman clicked and typed--updating the treaty on-screen. "Other points I noticed were: commercial use of outer space, clarification of my colleague's grounds, planetary defense, research proliferation, and enforcement.

"Further: regards to the services offered by the I.S.A., further clarification on Article II and Article XI, Article V, and Article Twelve.

"Now, to begin with, I would like to call attention to a part of my colleague's statement that you all seemed to have overlooked... Ms. Secretary?" The Hegemon looked to a petite woman sitting by the corner of the stage, who simply gave him a nod and rapidly typed on her own machine. The screen behind the Hegemon split in two, the left side showing the treaty while the right was taken by the meeting's minutes.

"'...have exactly zero jurisdiction or legitimacy to claim'," Gabriel read, himself reading similar on a tablet. "The key difference between land side and outer space is that here, on Oracia, we have jurisdiction over our territories, as well as having our claims legitimized in the modern world by our ancestors. It's an unfortunate fact of life that, in the absence of higher law, 'might makes right'. I fear that the partition of space might well take that direction, if we cannot reach accord now. Certainly, the term 'create' was in reference to the Lord, whom the Hadarites believe created the universe."

Beside him, silent, John nodded. "Or perhaps fabricated resources," the Hegemon mumbled.

"Regardless, that ties in on commercial use. Should we, as a civilization, allow the few to claim resources that they have no immediate right to is dangerous territory. One might shed blood, sweat, and tears for a wide variety of actions, Miss, not all of should be tolerated by that fact alone. Nonetheless, I'd like to point out that the treaty prohibits national and private appropriation. There are multiple holes in this--the largest being, which I believe addresses your main concern, that it does not prevent you from mining it. It simply prevents a state from sticking their flag on it and calling it theirs and, subsequently, attempting to deny access to other states.

Perhaps if there were an authorized body on the matter, mining rights to certain orbital objects could be granted on the basis of need--because, otherwise, we are right back to step one where lawlessness and military might reigns. I'm sure no one here wants that."

The Hegemon smirked, sending a glance to the Noberian President.

"On the note of planetary defense,” he went on, focusing back on the Kingboroughian, “I find it a foolhardy belief that we've the strength to turn back an orbital body on a collision course with the planet. Even if we had nuclear arms in space, I don't believe we'd have them in significant enough numbers to alter the course of an asteroid. Additionally, despite the multitude of eyes in the heavens, we have yet to detect any such body. An interstellar foe... any race advanced enough to march here in force would undoubtedly be advanced enough to have countermeasures against anything we could station in orbit against them--hell, we have countermeasures against missiles. Regardless, I'm certain that should either case ever surface, our successors won't hesitate for a moment to take action. Additionally, the treaty can be amended.

"Research proliferation: as the Falseans have stated, you are not required to share anything. You are encouraged to share--hell, not even that. There is no phrase in Article Two Section A mandating sharing; the article simply states'for the benefit and in the interests', not that you must share any discoveries. Neither does Article Eleven"--Gabriel's eyes shifted towards the other woman,--"which certain does grant the opportunity to refuse. Again, a consideration is not absolute, while Section B grants the state the decision on just what to share. Article Twelve denotes, quite clearly, that the openness is 'on a basis of reciprocity'. That quite kills the possibility of any unfriendly nations attending--these visitors are not being 'assigned', their states are 'consulting' with the host state, and ensuring that maximum 'precautions' to 'assure safety and to avoid interference with normal operations'.

"Article Five: I counter that we are a sovereign state with just as strong a right to national security as you are. Our national security is threatened by the deployment of kinetic strike systems and weapons of mass destruction into orbit, and I promise you: should this treaty not meet the expectations of the Andresian and Noberian legislatures, they will pass measures to safeguard our people, our state, and our prosperity.

"However, rather than taking such unilateral action, we have chosen to reach out to you all and, voluntarily and willing, surrender such offensive weaponry as orbital weapons of mass destruction and kinetic strike satellites. We are not surrendering our laser-based A.B.M. shield.

"As for enforcement... if you sign and ratify, you are expected to maintain your agreements. To not do so would violate a treaty your state agreed to, which alone is damaging to your international standing--especially so considering the nature and topic of this treaty.

“The treaty does not authorize, mandate, or specify action the I.S.A. may take to ensure compliance. On that note," Gabriel spun around to meet Chairman Meow's gaze, "Mr. Chairman, please modify Article Two Section B."

Article II Section B
 
The International Space Agency, which shall be based in the Semi-autonomous City of Syntreal City, will be tasks with maintaining an adequate record of all orbital bodies, ensuring that dangerous orbital bodies are removed to the best of its abilities, and recording all international and national exploration and use of outer space.
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