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does china have the samenumber ofsubmarnewith amer
Topic Started: Jun 12 2004, 10:16 PM (908 Views)
perestroika
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is ittrue that red china has d same number ofsubmarines as america? :P
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PLA1021
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ask Mogz on that.
yeah but over half of Chinese subs are DE, therefore could not sail too far into open water.
but it should be enough for defense.
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RBTiger
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Yeah, and if its about nuke subs, Chin has 7 I believe.

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Mogz
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The Chinese Navy falls just short of the U.S. in terms of submarines (according to current known numbers). Janes Defense lists China with 6 nuclear submarines and a whole host of D/E (15 being coastal patrol). Where the U.S. on the other hand only employees nuclear ones. I'm sure that China has a few subs tucked away somewhere that the international community isn't aware of, but I highly doubt they'd be nuclear. I grabbed this from a post I made on one of the other forums, hope this helps:

China:

Xia class (nuclear): 1
Han class (nuclear): 5
Kilo Class (D/E): 2
Improved Kilo Class (D/E): 2
Song class (D/E): 1 active
Ming class (short-range patrol) D/E): 15
Romeo Class (D/E): 65

U.S.

Virginia Class (nuclear): 4
Seawolf Class (nuclear): 3
Los Angeles Class (nuclear): 58
Ohio Class (nuclear): 28

Quote:
 

yeah but over half of Chinese subs are DE, therefore could not sail too far into open water.


Don't count on that mate, a German D/E U-boat sailed from Trondheim Norway to the Gulf of St. Lawrence (Canada) in 1941 and spent the better part of a week attacking convoys heading for England before it turned around and sailed back.
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PLA1021
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that means they are stronger than i thought....hum....
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bop_2k
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doesnt matter how many subs china has, every us sub is nucleur powered to my knowledge, it would be like saying that if britian had made 150 german u boats does that mean their sub arm is as big or powerful as us. There is no point to this thread because numbers dont account for that much if they are so far behind technologicially
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Mogz
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Well sometimes technology can have its downsides. One of the chief downsides of a nuclear submarines is they're noisier underwater than a D/E submarines (given the reactor noise as opposed to batteries). Thus this noise makes it easier for sonar (especially the variable-depth kind) to locate submarines.

That all said and done however, bop is indeed correct for the most part when it comes to numbers versus technology. The majority of the time technology pays over vesus strength in numbers.
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RBTiger
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But china's is not a truly "Blue water" navy. They don't have a carrier, and badly lack force projection capablities. That said, I believe they are pretty good in defending their nation.

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bop_040
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i believe that they would be generally piss poor in the naval side of defending their nation. many of their diesel subs range are very limited and so could not attack a carrier group well of the coastof say eastern taiwan because they dont have the range! also all china base subs are bought in from russia! in war no more sales and china is ****ed as their own production methods are still generally quite poor! this is why they continue to seek to buy any western or russian or pakistan technology! (eg of pak tech is that china asked for a "loan" of one of their f- somthings, wonder y?)
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PLA1021
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bop_o4
Jun 19 2004, 10:15 PM
i believe that they would be generally piss poor in the naval side of defending their nation. many of their diesel subs range are very limited and so could not attack a carrier group well of the coastof say eastern taiwan because they dont have the range! also all china base subs are bought in from russia! in war no more sales and china is ****ed as their own production methods are still generally quite poor! this is why they continue to seek to buy any western or russian or pakistan technology! (eg of pak tech is that china asked for a "loan" of one of their f- somthings, wonder y?)

man! did you fail your geography course?! taiwan is approximately 300 miles from china, and you can look up the range of any DE sub and see if it is lower than 300 miles.
and as far as i know, china bought the Kilo class from russia, which is a DE. but china BUILT their own nuclear sub. the ship building and designing is not poor at all. dont get it wrong, in case of emergency china's one party system can dictate over the country and put everything for military use. you arent afraid that their 1.2 billion people forced to work 12 hours a day and building thousands of ships? it could happen. tehy have the raw material and the oil. it's the third largets country overall. where did you get the imformation that china is buying technology from pakistan? from israel i agree, they made the J-10, but pakistan? never heard of that.

and PLEASE dont swear and replace it with a "*".
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bop_040
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i believe that they would be generally piss poor in the naval side of defending their nation

Wot is chinas naval production capacity? not as much as the us or even eu!

as i said i was talking about naval production so u can stick ur 1.2 billion people in chinas shipyards and nothing will be built! this is the laws of production theory is universally accepted that there is an optimum output level and 1.2 billion people in shipyards wont work, even if they are all working 12 hours a day!

also the majority of the people are expert farmers - so they will not be able to shipbuild! this will take training which in turn takes alot of time! Add this factor onto the fact that there is not enough shipbuilding facilities at present and china is not all dominant production wise!!!

I was talking about the other side of taiwan! not the straight! subs cant sail through land and so will have to go round island therefor at least doubling journey. I also meant they would be a few hundreds miles of taiwan coast aswell not in port on the islands!!! this deep water rules out quite a few chinese subs as they cant operate there!

if china duplicated russian tech then it will only be in its early stages as it is so recent and is still miles behind western tech! so they will be producing subs that are off poorer quality!

quote of another forum
">> support Pakistan to acquire some JAS-39 Gripens..... then there's a high likely chance that our Pakistani Allies would transfer one Gripen to China for technical analysis like they did with the F-16A Block 15 (for our J-10 and FC-1 development).<<

Well yes if Pakistan did get the grippen it would end up in china's hands ( One of the many reasons Sweden Isnt really gonna sell it )

this was two people from another forum talking! both respected as being accurate and talking about how pak could not afford gripens as sombody posted that they might be purchaing them. Will find more articles but as u can see i have not plucked this from the sky!

also population is not everything! and im sori if i offended u by swearing that 1 time
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bop_040
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no offense my friend pla 1021 but u did not know if the uk was even a nucleur power! and u try to give me geography lessons thats funny! lol!
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RBTiger
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Actually, I've replaced 'swear' words with ****. You won't come to know about it. Yes, This Pakistan and China alliance makes everyone uneasy. Why do you give nukes to Pakistan?

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bop_040
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it is my belief that china have done this to keep a balance of power in the region. This will mean that both sides will be more preoccupied with each other and china will have free reign to assert her dominance on the rest of asia. If we look to the future it will be india who will be chinas rivals, especially when it comes to there land forces, before china passed on tech to pak india was beginning to pull away militarily
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RBTiger
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Clever politics.

But unethical. The US will use India (if they allow themselves to) keep a watch over China.

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bop_040
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Yes the US i believe sees india as the country that can match china and keep her in check in the future. But how good are US china relations? The US has taken pakistan under her wing as a major partner in the war on terror and india has further allied herself towards russia! Russia and india have long been allies aswell so how well will the us be able to keep and influence indian policies in the region?
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AGhosh
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Pakistan takes and gives to china!
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Jai Hind
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RBTiger
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Actually, the Indian friendship with Russia doesn't matter, this isn't cold war. India has had a history of not being "friendly" with the US. They refuse to give them bases, or send troops, or act as a proxy.

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PLA1021
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And there's Japan.
and Afgan.
and S.Korea
and Philippines


US sure is dominating.
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RBTiger
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Being the only superpower in the world has its responsiblities!;-)

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bop_040
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ur back pla1021, havent answered my q?
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PLA1021
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bop_o4
Jun 22 2004, 05:18 PM
Yes the US i believe sees india as the country that can match china and keep her in check in the future. But how good are US china relations? The US has taken pakistan under her wing as a major partner in the war on terror and india has further allied herself towards russia! Russia and india have long been allies aswell so how well will the us be able to keep and influence indian policies in the region?

o u mean this one?
Ok good, im glad US is losing its influence on India.
Thanks you very much.

What i really like to see is a India-China-Russia bond.
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RBTiger
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India-Russia-China-Brazil bond would be the best thing to have happened to planet earth.

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PLA1021
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What does Brazil have?
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bop_040
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i believe that they would be generally piss poor in the naval side of defending their nation

Wot is chinas naval production capacity? not as much as the us or even eu!

as i said i was talking about naval production so u can stick ur 1.2 billion people in chinas shipyards and nothing will be built! this is the laws of production theory is universally accepted that there is an optimum output level and 1.2 billion people in shipyards wont work, even if they are all working 12 hours a day!

also the majority of the people are expert farmers - so they will not be able to shipbuild! this will take training which in turn takes alot of time! Add this factor onto the fact that there is not enough shipbuilding facilities at present and china is not all dominant production wise!!!

I was talking about the other side of taiwan! not the straight! subs cant sail through land and so will have to go round island therefor at least doubling journey. I also meant they would be a few hundreds miles of taiwan coast aswell not in port on the islands!!! this deep water rules out quite a few chinese subs as they cant operate there!

if china duplicated russian tech then it will only be in its early stages as it is so recent and is still miles behind western tech! so they will be producing subs that are off poorer quality!

quote of another forum
">> support Pakistan to acquire some JAS-39 Gripens..... then there's a high likely chance that our Pakistani Allies would transfer one Gripen to China for technical analysis like they did with the F-16A Block 15 (for our J-10 and FC-1 development).<<

Well yes if Pakistan did get the grippen it would end up in china's hands ( One of the many reasons Sweden Isnt really gonna sell it )

this was two people from another forum talking! both respected as being accurate and talking about how pak could not afford gripens as sombody posted that they might be purchaing them. Will find more articles but as u can see i have not plucked this from the sky!

also population is not everything! and im sori if i offended u by swearing that 1 time


that was the quote pla1021, u havent answered?

and how rbtiger woulds a military coalition involving brazil be asome? that is a very pecleur comment to say the least!!!
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PLA1021
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Wow first of all that's a lot of exclamation marks alrite.

"piss poor in the naval side of defending their nation"? - So why dont the US and Japan and Taiwan just come and take those islands in South China Sea and the Yellow Sea?
Mogz just told you that China almost has the same number of Subs as the US does and that DE CAN sail far therefore can sail all around Taiwan. Maybe if you could jus settle down a bit and you will see it.
For the surface ships, I did some research by myself(oh yeah!)
Destroyers:
LuHai class: 3 (1 more coming)
LuHu class: 2
LuDa III class: 6
LuDa class: 16
Frigates:
JiangWei II class: 8
JiangWei class: 4
JiangHu V class: 6
JiangHu III class: 3
JiangHu class: 24
Future developements include 052B,052C and 054 frigate.
Go ahead and laugh first, i know that aint even a fraction of the US navy, but they dont have to take the responsibility as the US navy either.

Ship production eh... Since China's main concern now is economy shipyard did not build that many ships for military use and that made some people like you think China has no ship production. There are somewhat 3,000,000 ships built for commercial use in China's shipyards.

Yeah, i was talking abt the distance to other side too, didnt i say 300 miles? The distance across the straight is wayyy fewer than 300 miles, i believe its a jus a bit over 100 miles.

And why do you think DE Subs can go across Atlantic ocean and ont being able to operate off shore Taiwan?

No China is not building their ships as duplications of Russian ships. Excample, 054 is based on French La Fayette class. 052B is based on US Aegis calss,
In 1968 when China was trying to explode its first atomic bomb,Russia pulled out all their technicians because of border collision, US was blocking China all the way it could, where did you think China duplicated their atomic bomb from and their first staillite? That's what they do, they invent and design by themselves.
No one told them how to duplicate gun power :P (jus kiddin)

Oh the hell population IS something, someting HUGE. Let's just assum they dont have enough shipbuilding facilities, which is inaccurate, but just to prove my point. Do you think a nation can be so dumb that she doesnt even know she can build more ship building facilities before building large qunatity of ships? Again, as i said, they have sufficient raw material and oil.

Dinner time, i'll talk to ya later!
<_<
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RBTiger
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Not a military combination with Brazil, just an economic one. Brazil is one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

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PLA1021
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What abt their diplomatics?
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bop_040
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fair points but ur principles are completly wrong, u send a properly equiped us, war group not battlke group and that chinese fleet will b obliterated, no arguements! as for the subs the us sub core will wipe the chinese, simple fact dont care if mogz says they have same numbers, look size is not everything, its a well respected belief that reliance on numbers will only result in defeat look at every major battle the brits fought, this is the weakness that they rely on!!
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PLA1021
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Of course size n number is not everything! Duh! But it is something important.
Also, J-10 and Su-27 against F-16 and Su-27 and Su-30 against F-18 is not thchnological behind and totallly relying on numbers now is it?
Okay please tell me how? how are the US subs going to wipe out Chinese Subs? Their subs are bigger? heavier? more comforatble? they deposite more nuclear waste? You want some fact? here some little fact, in 1996 the US subs and the USS kitty hawk ported at Japan entered Taiwan straight due to tensions between Taiwan and Mainland China, then a US sataillite reported some of the Ming and Song class subs based at ZheJiang has disappeared. Keep in mind that the Ming and Song class are not the most advanced subs in the PLAN, in fact, they are ooooold and small and crowded. But just that made the US fleet ran out of Taiwan straight in a big hurry.
Nononononononono, those Subs are there eventually, the chinese built them.
not because Mogz said they are there and they are there.

btw does brits stand for Britain? If so, battle of El Alamian , which they DID WIN, they relied on numbers. They had 1400 tanks against 600 panzers. Althought they received the Sherman tanks, which could match up Panzer IV and III, but mijority of their tanks are still Matilda and Churchill.



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bop_040
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we can all pick single incidents in history were numbers won, but the truth is that they are not that important, yes in taiwan strait those subs did result in the battle group changing corse but in the pacific ocean lol! no more ming subs for china, as many of those subs would struggle in blue water, lets face it china has a little more but dont say that they would have a better sub core than us, obsurd, also wots the maintence on these subs, chinas military budjet is not a fraction of us budget
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PLA1021
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bop_o4
Jul 5 2004, 03:50 PM
we can all pick single incidents in history were numbers won, but the truth is that they are not that important, yes in taiwan strait those subs did result in the battle group changing corse but in the pacific ocean lol! no more ming subs for china, as many of those subs would struggle in blue water, lets face it china has a little more but dont say that they would have a better sub core than us, obsurd, also wots the maintence on these subs, chinas military budjet is not a fraction of us budget

yeah now look who's counting numbers.

China doesnt need to fight in blue water what's so ever. And the US can not put all their subs in east asia but China can.

Multiply China's budget by 8 and you will get the money in US$ to Chinese Yuan. Isnt that low is it? But China gets the samething for 1 Yuan as in 1$ unless its international business.

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RBTiger
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That way, India has the 3rd largest military budget in the world in PPP(Purchasing power parity).

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PLA1021
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Glad to hear that.
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bop_040
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Yes but in an open conflict say with the US many of chinas old diesel subs would not have the range to fight over the pacific many have limited range.
Heres what i found on some of their newer diesel subs, they are pretty impressive

- Type 094



A new design (type 094) has been planned since the late 1980s. Possibly incorporating some Russian technology, the Type 094 is expected to be a dramatic improvement over the sole Xia class SSBN. by 2006, China could get one or, more probably, two "094 project" strategic submarines, equipped with JL (Julang or Giant Wave)-2 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) with a range of 10,000 km; this is a submarine-based variety of China's DF-31 ICBM. Several successful tests of these SLBMs.
by 2006, China could get one or, more probably, two "094 project" strategic submarines, equipped with JL (Julang or Giant Wave)-2 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) with a range of 10,000 km; this is a submarine-based variety of China's DF-31 ICBM. Several successful tests of these SLBMs


- Type 093

The new Type 93 SSN is expected to be similar in performance to Russian second generation designs such as the Victor III. In summer 2001, one or two newly constructed "093 project" attack submarines participated in Dongshan maneuvers near the coast of Fujian province, about 200 km from Taiwan.
By 2006, PLAN could acquire at least four "093 project" submarines, equipped by anti-ship cruise missiles with a range of up to 500 km (somewhat similar to Russia's Granit anti-ship missiles) and land-attack cruise missiles (LACMs) with a range of up to 2,500 km (similar to Russia's Granat LACMs).


- Xia Class SSBN (1)

In 1981 China launched the Xia-class SSBN #406, derived from the Han-class SSN, with the hull lengthened to accommodate the missile tubes. The Type-092 became operational in 1983, though missile firings conducted in 1984 and 1985 were unsatisfactory due to fire control problems which were not resoloved until until 1988.
The Xia class SSBN was initially armed with 12 JL-1 (CSS-N-3) SLBMs. Operations have been limited and the Xia has never sailed beyond Chinese regional waters.Somewhat surprisingly, the Xia was sighted during PLAN exercises in December 2000. This is the first time the Xia had been sighted at sea since it was upgraded in 1995. The single Xia class SSBN was back into the sea after a 3-year long refit. This modernization project included a new black paint, a new bow mounted sonar, a redesigned casing housing longer missile launch tubes, plus upgraded combat control systems for launching new SLBMs.


- Han Class SSN attack submarine (5)

Work started on the Type 09-1 Han class nuclear powered attack submarine in the late 1950s, though the first unit was not completed until 1974. With a fully loaded displacement of 5000 tons, this class is armed with six 533mm torpedoe tubes. The last three boats of the class were erroneously reported to have been lengthened by eight meters to accommodate tubes for six YJ-1 SSM launchers to the rear of the sail. All five units of this class are deployed with the North Sea Fleet.

- Kilo Class SSK Submarine (4)





In May 2002, China ordered eight Kilo 636 submarines. It is planned that the submarines will be delivered to China within five years. Because of this, Russia is planning to produce these submarines simultaneously in different shipyards. The purchase is in response to the sale of eight subs to Taiwan. These submarines are much more advanced than the four Kilo submarines received by PLAN in 1995-98 , 2 were standard export 877 type, which are deployed to the East Sea Fleet. and the other two of the newer 636 type with quieter propulsion. The PLAN's new Kilo's with equipped with two new-generation weapon systems. Klub anti-ship cruise missiles with a range up to 200 km; the Klub or 3M54E1 is developed by the Yekaterinburg OKB Novator; no counterpart has been invented in the world.
The Shkval torpedo, whose speed reaches 100 meters per second. After launch under water, it flies through the air and descends by parachute into the region where the hostile ship was detected and then again travels under water.


- Song Class SSK Submarine

This new class of SSG was launched in May 1994 but not commissioned until 1998. Although it still retains the stepped conning tower similar to the old Ming/Romeo class, the overall design represents a major step forward compared with the obsolete Ming class. The improvement includes a hydrodynamically sleek profile, new cylindrical bow mounted sonars and German MTU 12V 493 diesel engine. 3 to 4 Song Class submarines may have been built.
As in the case in the aerospace industry, China will not be giving up the Song-class conventional submarine-upgrading project. The first two stages of the upgrade work have been completed. Starting with the third vessel, the Song (Type 039) submarine is very close to the French Agosta 90B in external shape. The height of the sail has been lowered in order to increase stability underwater. It is equipped with a new weapon control system. Song and Kilo 636 will also form a type of high-low combination.

http://student.dcu.ie/~fitzpas6/WAFF/index.html

But i would rather have the US submarine core over chinas anyday.
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PLA1021
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Shon
Aug 1 2004, 03:43 PM
bop_2k
Jun 17 2004, 01:26 PM
doesnt matter how many subs china has, every us sub is nucleur powered to my knowledge, it would be like saying that if britian had made 150 german u boats does that mean their sub arm is as big or powerful as us. There is no point to this thread because numbers dont account for that much if they are so far behind technologicially

obviously nuclear submarines have certain pros over disel engine submarines.
but diesel submarine's effectiveness isnt that far behind.
actually US is now more focusing on diesel submarines after rim pac (98 i think) exercise when a tiny Korean diesel submarine(209class) sunked about 13 battleships including U.S carrier and survived till end of exercise.

exactly! and CHina has half a hundred DE subs. They used to have over 100 in the 70s, but some are dicommissioned.
They also produce less nuclear waste and help the enviroment :P:P ^__^
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PLA1021
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bop_o4
Aug 1 2004, 05:54 PM
Yes but in an open conflict say with the US many of chinas old diesel subs would not have the range to fight over the pacific many have limited range.
Heres what i found on some of their newer diesel subs, they are pretty impressive

- Type 094



A new design (type 094) has been planned since the late 1980s. Possibly incorporating some Russian technology, the Type 094 is expected to be a dramatic improvement over the sole Xia class SSBN. by 2006, China could get one or, more probably, two "094 project" strategic submarines, equipped with JL (Julang or Giant Wave)-2 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) with a range of 10,000 km; this is a submarine-based variety of China's DF-31 ICBM. Several successful tests of these SLBMs.
by 2006, China could get one or, more probably, two "094 project" strategic submarines, equipped with JL (Julang or Giant Wave)-2 submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs) with a range of 10,000 km; this is a submarine-based variety of China's DF-31 ICBM. Several successful tests of these SLBMs


- Type 093

The new Type 93 SSN is expected to be similar in performance to Russian second generation designs such as the Victor III. In summer 2001, one or two newly constructed "093 project" attack submarines participated in Dongshan maneuvers near the coast of Fujian province, about 200 km from Taiwan.
By 2006, PLAN could acquire at least four "093 project" submarines, equipped by anti-ship cruise missiles with a range of up to 500 km (somewhat similar to Russia's Granit anti-ship missiles) and land-attack cruise missiles (LACMs) with a range of up to 2,500 km (similar to Russia's Granat LACMs).


- Xia Class SSBN (1)

In 1981 China launched the Xia-class SSBN #406, derived from the Han-class SSN, with the hull lengthened to accommodate the missile tubes. The Type-092 became operational in 1983, though missile firings conducted in 1984 and 1985 were unsatisfactory due to fire control problems which were not resoloved until until 1988.
The Xia class SSBN was initially armed with 12 JL-1 (CSS-N-3) SLBMs. Operations have been limited and the Xia has never sailed beyond Chinese regional waters.Somewhat surprisingly, the Xia was sighted during PLAN exercises in December 2000. This is the first time the Xia had been sighted at sea since it was upgraded in 1995. The single Xia class SSBN was back into the sea after a 3-year long refit. This modernization project included a new black paint, a new bow mounted sonar, a redesigned casing housing longer missile launch tubes, plus upgraded combat control systems for launching new SLBMs.


- Han Class SSN attack submarine (5)

Work started on the Type 09-1 Han class nuclear powered attack submarine in the late 1950s, though the first unit was not completed until 1974. With a fully loaded displacement of 5000 tons, this class is armed with six 533mm torpedoe tubes. The last three boats of the class were erroneously reported to have been lengthened by eight meters to accommodate tubes for six YJ-1 SSM launchers to the rear of the sail. All five units of this class are deployed with the North Sea Fleet.

- Kilo Class SSK Submarine (4)





In May 2002, China ordered eight Kilo 636 submarines. It is planned that the submarines will be delivered to China within five years. Because of this, Russia is planning to produce these submarines simultaneously in different shipyards. The purchase is in response to the sale of eight subs to Taiwan. These submarines are much more advanced than the four Kilo submarines received by PLAN in 1995-98 , 2 were standard export 877 type, which are deployed to the East Sea Fleet. and the other two of the newer 636 type with quieter propulsion. The PLAN's new Kilo's with equipped with two new-generation weapon systems. Klub anti-ship cruise missiles with a range up to 200 km; the Klub or 3M54E1 is developed by the Yekaterinburg OKB Novator; no counterpart has been invented in the world.
The Shkval torpedo, whose speed reaches 100 meters per second. After launch under water, it flies through the air and descends by parachute into the region where the hostile ship was detected and then again travels under water.


- Song Class SSK Submarine

This new class of SSG was launched in May 1994 but not commissioned until 1998. Although it still retains the stepped conning tower similar to the old Ming/Romeo class, the overall design represents a major step forward compared with the obsolete Ming class. The improvement includes a hydrodynamically sleek profile, new cylindrical bow mounted sonars and German MTU 12V 493 diesel engine. 3 to 4 Song Class submarines may have been built.
As in the case in the aerospace industry, China will not be giving up the Song-class conventional submarine-upgrading project. The first two stages of the upgrade work have been completed. Starting with the third vessel, the Song (Type 039) submarine is very close to the French Agosta 90B in external shape. The height of the sail has been lowered in order to increase stability underwater. It is equipped with a new weapon control system. Song and Kilo 636 will also form a type of high-low combination.

http://student.dcu.ie/~fitzpas6/WAFF/index.html

But i would rather have the US submarine core over chinas anyday.

Of course everbody wants the US armed force. Once again i have to say Chinese DE subs ranges are enough to cover up taiwan's water. PLAN is still green water navy but taiwan's water is not blue either.
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bop_040
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Have to say that some of the new subs in chinas navy are very impressive. In about 20 years i believe that they could overtake the us in this area.
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PLA1021
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Song class, my favourite.
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KJlost
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My personal estimate of that at least half of Romeos have been put into reserves and off active status from that 60 number region. That makes Chinese sub strength to about 70, but I do not trust Romeos to do much, and while upgraded, I doubt Ming class have a role in sub-to-sub warfare either.

That puts just Kilos, Songs, the new Type042 sub, Han and maybe the Type093 SSN up for comparison. 12 Kilos, 2~3 Songs, 2 Type042s for now, 5~6 Hans? And maybe 1~2 Type093 is what China can offer in terms of sub-to-sub combat.

US SSNs are examples of silence. Noisy nuke sub story is overblown. Seawolf is quiter than anything man-made vehicle underwater right now. The only thing that may match it is loitering diesel sub, but that can't last long really. Seawolf and Virginias use newer reactors that runs on natural flow of seawater as collant at a low speed, eliminating the pump-noise that SSK enthusiasts have always pointed out. LA subs would be no slouchy either, and they would still belong in the tops in silence. But silence isn't the only thing that matters in submarine warfare. In terms of endurance, speed, weapons, sensors and overall combat capability, PLAN sub fleet falls behind significantly due to their reliance on diesel subs.

Besides, US SSN fleet trains with SSK users frequently. Japan, Austrailia, South Korea, Germany Netherland and pretty much most European nations. They know the tricks, the weaknesses and strenght of diesels.
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PLA1021
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KJlost
Aug 3 2004, 09:10 PM
My personal estimate of that at least half of Romeos have been put into reserves and off active status from that 60 number region. That makes Chinese sub strength to about 70, but I do not trust Romeos to do much, and while upgraded, I doubt Ming class have a role in sub-to-sub warfare either.

That puts just Kilos, Songs, the new Type042 sub, Han and maybe the Type093 SSN up for comparison. 12 Kilos, 2~3 Songs, 2 Type042s for now, 5~6 Hans? And maybe 1~2 Type093 is what China can offer in terms of sub-to-sub combat.

US SSNs are examples of silence. Noisy nuke sub story is overblown. Seawolf is quiter than anything man-made vehicle underwater right now. The only thing that may match it is loitering diesel sub, but that can't last long really. Seawolf and Virginias use newer reactors that runs on natural flow of seawater as collant at a low speed, eliminating the pump-noise that SSK enthusiasts have always pointed out. LA subs would be no slouchy either, and they would still belong in the tops in silence. But silence isn't the only thing that matters in submarine warfare. In terms of endurance, speed, weapons, sensors and overall combat capability, PLAN sub fleet falls behind significantly due to their reliance on diesel subs.

Besides, US SSN fleet trains with SSK users frequently. Japan, Austrailia, South Korea, Germany Netherland and pretty much most European nations. They know the tricks, the weaknesses and strenght of diesels.

Dont underestimate little DE's strength lol.
Of course this agricultural nation can not fight on equal term with countries that were industrializeing for over 200 years. Therefore PLAN's main goal is defense.
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